USDA’s Wildlife Services Sued Again: Enviro Orgs Ask Court to Halt Wildlife-Killing Program in Idaho

Story by Dan Zukowsk as published on EnviroNews.TV

“Conservationists contend that Wildlife Services operates primarily for the benefit of ‘ Welfare’ Ranchers…”

(EnviroNews Nature) — Four conservation groups filed a lawsuit on May 11, 2017, aimed at stopping the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) from killing Idaho’s wild animals. The USDA’s Wildlife Services (WS) program killed more than 280,000 mammals and birds in Idaho during 2016. The animals axed include 3,860 coyotes and 72 gray wolves, along with cougars, black bears, feral dogs and more than 273,000 European starlings.

Plaintiffs in the suit include the Western Watersheds Project, WildEarth Guardians, the Center for Biological Diversity (the Center) and Predator Defense. The suit alleges that the USDA has never prepared a full Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) as is required by the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA).

“Most people in Idaho would be shocked to learn how many animals Wildlife Services already kills in our state,” said Andrea Santarsiere, a Senior Attorney at the Center. “Now this reckless agency wants to slaughter even more of our black bears, mountain lions, coyotes, ravens, and other wildlife using nightmarish methods like poisons and aerial gunning, without even studying the environmental consequences. Such a lackadaisical approach to wildlife management is not permitted by the law.”

Wildlife Services, an arm of the USDA’s Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS), is described on the agency’s website as a program to “help people resolve wildlife damage to a wide variety of resources and to reduce threats to human health and safety.” APHIS received $1.1 billion in federal funding for fiscal year 2017.

Conservationists contend that Wildlife Services operates primarily for the benefit of ranchers. The program was the subject of a 2016 exposé in Harper’s Magazine. In a related interview with National Geographic, the author, Christopher Ketcham said, “Since its founding in 1885, Wildlife Services has served one purpose—to clean up the American West for the ranching industry, so they wouldn’t have to deal with predators or other animals they deemed pests.”

EnviroNews has previously reported that, nationwide, WS slaughtered 2.7 million wild animals in 2016. “Wildlife Services is stuck in the barbarism of the 19th century, before the full value of predators in ecosystems was understood,” said Erik Molvar, executive director of Western Watersheds Project.

The USDA’s obscure, century-old wildlife-killing program traps and poisons these great many animals. It swoops in to shoot them from the air using both fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters. Both neck and foot snares are used — methods considered inhumane by many prominent animal rights advocates. It kills coyotes with controversial M-44 cyanide bombs.

In what might be called “collateral damage,” reports of pets being killed are not uncommon. In March, 2017, a cyanide bomb left by Wildlife Services in Pocatello, Idaho killed a dog and poisoned its owner, a 14-year old boy. Between 1985 and 1993, 21 people in Arizona were injured by M-44s. A Utah man was left permanently injured and unable to work after being poisoned by one of the dangerous devices.

“It isn’t just wildlife that is directly harmed by the killing programs,” said Brooks Fahy, Executive Director of Predator Defense, in the press release. “These lethal weapons pose a risk to recreational users of public lands, their pets and the ‘nontarget’ species that die by the hundreds every year.”..”CONTINUED

Hunter Involved in Horse Shooting Works For a NY Sheriffs Office

Source: story by Brett Davidsen as published on WHEC News 10

“How do you mistake a horse for a coyote?”

Hunter_involved_in_horse_shooting_works_for_Ontario_County_Sheriff39s_Office-syndImport-053802For weeks, many of you have been asking us to look into the case of two horses shot by hunters in Livingston County.

It happened last month and since then we’ve put in several calls to police and the state Department of Environmental Conservation trying to track down answers. Finally, Wednesday we received a release about the incident and Thursday we learned one of the men involved works for the Ontario County Sheriff’s Department.

Ontario County Sheriff Phil Povero says it was not his investigation, so he was not at liberty to release information. Why the DEC waited more than three weeks to tell us what happened isn’t clear and the horse owners tell News10NBC even they were left in the dark.

Owner Tom Maggio says, “We’ve had horses all our lives. They’re just like your kids and that’s how you feel. You’ve lost one of your family. That’s how my wife feels.”

Maggio is still trying to make sense of what happened on the land in Nunda where his wife and stepdaughter both raise horses.

Last month two licensed hunters taking part in a coyote hunt shot two of their horses in two separate locations on the property. One horse died. The other horse, Comanche, was wounded. The bullet is still lodged in his left shoulder. It initially had us asking how an incident like this could happen.

“Let me ask you the same question? How do you mistake a horse for a coyote?” asks Maggio.

After the incident occurred, News10NBC began asking questions of the state Department of Environmental Conservation, the investigating agency. The DEC offered little information. Yesterday, it announced it had taken action against the two hunters identified as Christian Smith, of Phelps, and Glenn Gosson, of Fairport.

The DEC revoked their hunting licenses for three years, fined them $200 dollars and had them pay restitution for the value of the dead horse, its burial fee and veterinarian bills for Comanche. What the DEC didn’t mention is that Smith is also a law enforcement officer. Thursday, in a prepared statement, Sheriff Povero confirmed Smith is a lieutenant working in the corrections division. Povero would not take questions, saying it’s a personnel matter.

“The Ontario County Office of Sheriff is now conducting a separate internal investigation relative to the off-duty conduct of this employee,” says Povero.

Smith remains on active duty. Maggio wonders if the DEC dragged its feet on the investigation and let the men off easy because Smith is in law enforcement.

“I just don’t feel that,” says Maggio. “You know, it was swept under the carpet — too much doesn’t add up.”

We went to the DEC’s regional headquarters in Avon to get more answers. We were told no one was available to speak with us, but someone would call, no one did.

“Something needs to be changed,” says Maggio. “It really, really does. Because this time it’s a horse, next time it might be one of us.”

Maggio says he was never even told the names of the hunters until he heard them on the news Wednesday. He says he believes the men feel bad about what happened, but also says he believes they have given other hunters a bad name.

BLM Rescinds Permit for Deadly Wolf Derby

“Good news for the Wild Horses & Burros on two counts:

  1. Leaving predators on public lands may FINALLY allow mother nature to manage wildlife correctly as she has since the beginning of time.
  2. Hope that public pressure/opinion truly can have an impact on the BLM and the means in which they mismanage public lands…keep the faith!” ~ R.T.

Defenders of the predator’s introduction decry what they call Idaho’s “War on Wolves.”

TWIN FALLS • The U.S. Bureau of Land Management has withdrawn its permit to allow a wolf and coyote derby on public land near Salmon.

Seven groups had been suing to stop the derby planned by the hunter rights group Idaho for Wildlife to hold on public land in January.

The lawsuits and pile of public comments in opposition to the derby likely led to the BLM’s decision, Defenders of Wildlife spokesman Shawn Cantrell said Tuesday.

“I think one can infer some combination of those two led to the decision,” he said. “We’re obviously very pleased that they have.”

The BLM had approved the five-year permit a couple of weeks ago, saying no significant environmental impact from the derby was apparent.

Now the derby will be held on private land, as it was last year, said Idaho for Wildlife spokesman Steve Alde. The BLM permit would have roughly doubled the land available by providing access to federal land.

“The BLM at the D.C. level has become too politically influenced and motivated,” Alde said, as requiring an extensive environmental review “for only 100 to 150 hunters to cover over 3 million acres is absurd and ridiculous.”

The first derby in December 2013 drew about 100 hunters and negative media attention from outside Idaho. The news website Vice ran a lengthy article by someone who went undercover to participate.

Last year, 21 coyotes were killed but no wolves. The wolves were the focus, though, of derby supporters and opponents.

Wolves were largely eradicated decades ago, but they have been a controversial issue in Idaho and elsewhere in the West since their reintroduction in the 1990s, often pitting environmentalists against ranchers, hunters and others who didn’t want to see wolves return.

Defenders of the predator’s introduction decry what they call Idaho’s “War on Wolves.”

Wolf hunting started in Idaho in 2008. The political argument since has been how much hunting to allow and how much state money to spend controlling the wolf population.

The Republican-dominated Legislature, with Gov. C.L. “Butch” Otter’s strong support, created a Wolf Depredation Control Board earlier this year to oversee the killing of problem wolves.

daho Democrats tend to favor killing fewer wolves and spending less money to do it. Environmental groups in Blaine County, one of Idaho’s few blue bastions, have been leading the way, working with local sheepherders on non-lethal wolf-control methods.

The green groups that were suing cheered the BLM’s decision, saying the derby undercut the wolf population’s recovery.

“The public spoke loud and clear against this wildlife killing competition, and we are glad to see senior officials at the Department of the Interior ultimately respond to the public’s opposition by directing that the permit be withdrawn,” said Suzanne Stone, of Defenders, in a news release. “By denying the permit, BLM is supporting sound wildlife management practices as opposed to endorsing archaic killing competitions on our public lands that Americans so clearly oppose.”

“We’re so glad that the deadly derby has been canceled this year,” said Amy Atwood, senior attorney at the Center for Biological Diversity. “These sort of ruthless kill-fests have no place in this century. We intend to pursue every available remedy to stop these horrible contests.”

Alder said derby participants will have to sign a waiver saying any animals taken on public land won’t qualify for the derby. Idaho for Wildlife started the application process early, as BLM advised, he said.

He blamed the BLM’s D.C. office for revoking the permit and said his group will “push for more legislative oversight of this out-of-control agency that is now caving to the radical anti-hunters.”

Alder said the group again will offer two cash prizes. Excess money will be given to charities, including to support a rancher who, Alder wrote, lost most of his calves and 13 adult cows to wolves over the summer and may have to get a job at ShopKo to make ends meet.

The derby will be held Jan. 2 to 4.

$10k Reward for Killing of Wild Horses in 2 States

story by Scott Sonner from multiple sources

Nearly a Dozen Federally Protected Horses Shot Dead

The U.S. Bureau of Land Management is investigating the shooting deaths of nearly a dozen federally protected wild horses and offering a $10,000 reward in connection with the four separate incidents reported in California and Nevada since the beginning of the year, agency officials said Monday.

The most recent killings involved one horse and two burros on BLM land near Black Rock Canyon in Pershing County about 100 miles northeast of Reno. They were discovered April 9.

The BLM earlier announced a $1,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the shooter or shooters responsible for killing two mustangs in California’s Lassen County near the Nevada line.

A BLM crew working on a prescribed fire on April 3 discovered the remains of those horses — which had been dead for several weeks — near Newland Reservoir about 12 miles southeast of Eagleville.

Earlier, six additional mustangs were found shot to death in northern Nevada — three in Eureka County in January and three in Lander County in February, BLM spokeswoman Heather Emmons said.

“We started seeing a string of these so we thought we would offer a bigger reward,” Emmons said Monday.

The three horses found dead in Lander County on Feb 2 were near Bottle Summit on the Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest. They were about 10 miles south of U.S. Highway 50 and 30 miles west of Eureka — about 250 miles east of Reno. The three in Eureka County were found Jan. 25 near 3 C Well about 15 miles south of Eureka.

Emmons said she could not provide any additional information because the investigation is ongoing.

BLM Director Bob Abbey asked anyone with information to call the BLM Crime Hotline at 1-800-521-6501. He said persons providing information may choose to remain anonymous.

“The perpetrators of these unlawful killings will be vigorously pursued by BLM law enforcement and our partner law enforcement agencies,” Abbey said Monday. “We hope this reward offer will generate information that leads to the swift arrest and ultimate conviction of these individuals.”

The killings are a violation of the Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971 and punishable by up to a year in prison and a $100,000 fine. Two Nevada men recently completed six-month prison terms after they pleaded guilty to shooting several federally protected mustangs about 120 miles north of Reno in 2009.

An estimated 37,000 wild horses currently roam federal land in 10 western states, about half of them in Nevada.

Wild Burro Shooting Texas Parks and Wildlife to hold Annual Public Hearing

(The News As We See It) by R.T. Fitch ~ President of Wild Horse Freedom Federation

An Opportunity to Comment

Wild Horse Freedom Federation‘s (WHFF) Director of Wild Burro Affairs, Marjorie Farabee, has brought to our attention that this week the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD) will be holding an annual hearing.  It is interesting to note that with all of the controversy swirling around the TPWD’s policy of shooting wild burros on sight there is no mention of them or their policy on the proposed agenda, Marjorie intends to change that with your help.  Below is an excerpt from her latest update:

Here is the breakdown of how these meetings will be conducted.  On August 24th at 9 am the committee will discuss agenda items 1- 21.  The public may attend but they may not participate.  At 2 PM is open mic.  The public may discuss any item related to the parks at this time.  The burros may be addressed if we choose, and we can speak for 3 minutes.

On the 25th at 9am the commission will meet again to finalize the agenda, and the public may attend.
It is interesting to note that one can not find the burro listed as feral, exotic, or invasive on their site, yet they have a policy to shoot them. 
I listed two of the agenda items I felt would impact the burros, even though they are not listed by name.”
The meeting will be moderated by John Davis of TPWD.

Annual Public Hearing
Wednesday, August 24, 2011
2:00 p.m.

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Commission Hearing Room
4200 Smith School Road, Austin, TX  78744

Commissioner Peter M. Holt, Commission Chair
Carter Smith, Commission Liaison 


  1. Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission will take Public Testimony on any Issue Related to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department


Commission Agenda Item No. 10
Presenter:  John Davis

Commercial Nongame Permit Rules
August 25, 2011

I.       Executive Summary:  This item seeks adoption of proposed changes to rules governing the collection and sale of nongame wildlife.  The proposed amendments would:

  • Authorize the possession, transportation, sale, offering for sale, importation, and exportation of dead armadillos by persons who hold a commercial nongame dealer permit;
  • Clarify that “black list” species may be imported, possessed, and sold, provided they are lawfully acquired;
  • Remove all species of bats from the effect of the rules; and
  • Make housekeeping-type changes to update internal references.

II.      Discussion:  Under Parks and Wildlife Code, Chapter 67, the department is required to develop and administer management programs to ensure the continued ability of nongame species of fish and wildlife to perpetuate themselves successfully, and to conduct ongoing investigations of nongame fish and wildlife to develop information on populations, distribution, habitat needs, limiting factors, and any other biological or ecological data to determine appropriate management and regulatory information.  The commission is required to establish any limits on the taking, possession, propagation, transportation, importation, exportation, sale, or offering for sale of nongame fish or wildlife that the department considers necessary to manage the species.

At the May 25, 2011 Regulations Committee meeting, staff was authorized to publish proposed rules in the Texas Register for public comment.  The proposed rules appeared in the July 22, 2011, issue of the Texas Register (36 TexReg 4643-4644).  A summary of public comment on the proposed rules will be presented at the time of the hearing.

III.     Recommendation:  Staff recommends that the Commission adopt the following motions:

“The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts amendments to 31 TAC §§65.325, 65.327, and 65.331, concerning Commercial Nongame Permits, with changes as necessary to the proposed text as published in the July 22, 2011, issue of the Texas Register (36 TexReg 4643-4644).”

Commission Agenda Item No. 16
Presenter:  Scott Vaca

Implementation of Legislation during the 82nd Texas Legislative Session
House Bill 716 — Permits for Aerial Management of Wildlife and Exotic Species
August 25, 2011

I.       Executive Summary:  This item presents for adoption, proposed amendments that would implement the provisions of House Bill 716, enacted by the 82nd Texas Legislature, which authorizes the Commission to promulgate rules allowing the holder of an aerial hunting permit to contract with a qualified landowner or landowner’s authorized representative to act as a gunner or observer for the take of feral hogs or coyotes from a helicopter.

II.      Discussion: House Bill 716 amended the Parks and Wildlife Code by adding new §43.1075, which allows a qualified landowner or landowner’s agent, as determined by commission rule, to contract to participate as a hunter or observer in using a helicopter to take depredating feral hogs or coyotes under the authority of a permit issued under Parks and Wildlife, Subchapter G.

Staff was authorized at the May, 2011 meeting of the Regulations Committee to publish proposed rules required or authorized by legislation enacted by the 82nd Legislature.  The proposed amendments were published in the July 22, 2011 issue of the Texas Register (36 TegReg 4641-4643).  Staff will present a summary of public comment at the time of the meeting.

III.     Recommendation:  Staff recommends the Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopt the following motion:

“The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopts proposed new 31 TAC §65.151 and §65.152, concerning Permits for Aerial Management of Wildlife and Exotic Species, with changes as necessary to the proposed text as published in the July 22, 2011, issue of the Texas Register (36 TexReg 4641-4643).” ”

 If anyone is interested in either commenting or attending please contact Marjorie at

Fitch Outs BLM Employee Who Advocates Hunting Season on Wild Horses

Story by Steven Long ~ Editor/Publisher of Horseback Magazine

Not so Clever BLMster Reveals Agency’s Mind-Think

Wild Horse Freedom Federation president R.T. Fitch with friends ~ photo by Terry Fitch

HOUSTON, (Horseback) – An employee in the Denver office of the federal Bureau of Land Management has been outed as advocating a hunting season for wild horses in the west.

The employee’s email was traced after it was sent to author R.T. Fitch’s “Straight From the Horse’s Heart” blog. Fitch, a fierce opponent of current BLM stampede, capture, and hold, policies traced the email address to BLM NOC OC-330, Denver Federal Center, Bldg 40 – the agency’s National Operations Center.

The employee wrote: “The deer populations up north are so big and beautiful, but down south there are far too many deer and they are all malnourished and fighting for little food sources. We regulate the populations through hunting permits and kill-quotas. Why is it such a faux-pa (sp?) to hunt a horse? If we leave the horse populations alone, all the press and citizens would look at the sickly and starving over-abundance of horses and beg the government to do something about it!!! Rediculous. (sic) Why is a horse’s life more important than a deer’s life? Or a chicken’s life? (sic) The populations must be regulated to ensure good healthy strong ones are around for future generations to enjoy.” 

BLM national spokesman Tom Gorey quickly repudiated the statement saying, “The BLM is committed to the well-being of wild horses and burros, both on and off the range. Our agency categorically repudiates the remarks of the individual quoted on R.T. Fitch’s blog, which in no way reflect the views of the BLM.”

Yet in the blog, Fitch fears the statement of the Denver BLM employee who wrote to him is characteristic of the attitude of agency employees throughout the Wild Horse and Burro Program. Horseback  Magazine as well as others has repeatedly exposed abuses ranging from threatening media with arrest while reporting and photographing “gathers” of horses, denying press and public access to the capture of wild horses, denying ongoing access to giant holding pastures paid for by taxpayer funding, use of veterinarians unlicensed in State of Nevada, and closing air space over its roundups in violation of Federal Aviation Administration rules.

Click (HERE) to visit Horseback Magazine and to Comment

BLM Employee/Contractor Publicly Promotes Hunting Season on Wild Horses and Burros

(The News As We See It) by R.T. Fitch~President of the Wild Horse Freedom Federation

Give an Idiot a Computer and Watch the Sparks Fly

BLM wants to open hunting season on Wild Horses and Burros ~ artwork by Cyrstal Lopez

For you long term readers, you may remember during last November, click (HERE), when we caught a BLM employee using government equipment on government time writing to this blog with a user name of “Animal Abuser” and a fake email address of AAbuserAfterYOU..  Well once again another BLM employee, bored from suckling on the teat of the Federal government, has written to this blog with the recommendation that the only true way to manage wild horses is to open up a hunting season on them.

This individual is not smart enough to know that not only was his/her comment filtered and pulled from the queue but there are also ways that average, semi-savvy computer geeks, such as myself, can not only tell where an email comes from but can track it right down to the geographical location and the exact unit it was typed on.  Last year we figured out exactly which BLM office in Colorado the Animal Abuser worked and the assigned user of the laptop that it was written upon.   Steven Long, editor and publisher of the Horseback Magazine made contact with the BLM’s mouthpiece in D.C., Tom Gorey, who assured us that he would take care of it and “DOINK” not another word.

Now another low-life BLM employee, using your equipment and time ,sent this…sit down as you are not going to believe this idiot’s rambling…oppps, shouldn’t say that, it could be Bob Abbey:

The deer populations up north are so big and beautiful, but down south there are far too many deer and they are all malnourished and fighting for little food sources.  We regulate the populations through hunting permits and kill-quotas.  Why is it such a faux-pa (sp?) to hunt a horse?  If we leave the horse populations alone, all the press and citizens would look at the sickly and starving over-abundance of horses and beg the government to do something about it!!!  Rediculous.  Why is a horse’s life more important than a deer’s life?  Or a chicken’s life?  The populations must be regulated to ensure good healthy strong ones are around for future generations to enjoy.”

Chicken Herds are causing range degradation according to BLM employee

Okay, have you dropped and rolled, yet?   Is this not a case of a mind so detached from reality that he/she/it actually is comparing a wild horse to a blinking CHICKEN!?!? Excuse me while I take a few moments off and shower because I think I wet my pants laughing so hard…no, never mind I just spilled my Wrangler Iced Tea.

Why is a horse’s life more important than a chicken?  Why is a wild horses life more important than YOURS you backward thinking government employee that ought to be fired and sent back to remedial first grade.  Let see…this brings to light a few things that I can’t remember ever seeing before:

  • Can’t remember ever seeing or hearing of an American solider saddling up a chicken to ride off to battle and defend our country.
  • Don’t recall ever seeing a chicken pulling a carriage, wagon or cart across this great land of ours.
  • There does not appear to have ever been any speedy mail service that was called the “Chicken Express”.
  • In all of my recollection I cannot ever remember seeing throngs of people, sitting on the edges of their seats watching a world class Chicken Race
  • Don’t recall anyone ever roping a cow, running barrels or cutting cattle on the back of a chicken
  • Nor have I ever heard anyone ever pose the questions, “Why did the Horse cross the road” or “What came first, the Horse or the egg?”

I suppose in your twisted mind the chickens are degrading the range, too…good God there is nothing more detrimental to the environment than an entire herd of wild, out of control chickens stampeding across the desert.  “Grab the women and the young-uns, the CHICKENS are stampeding”

I guess what bothers me the most “Chicken Gizzard” is that your mentality and your attitude personifies what we, the people who pay your salary, perceive to be the disgusting illness that permeates your corrupt agency all the way to the top.  You are the very best living proof that the management, which you don’t do I might add, of wildlife should be taken out of the hands of the special interest serving BLM and DoI who cater exclusively to hunting, cattle and extraction money mongers.  The only management that your vile organization has done over the years has been to manage our national, native icons right into extinction through the unwarranted and illegal destruction of once flourishing herds.

“Chicken Legs” I am not going to let this one go; we are working on tracking you down as I type and we WILL let those above you, all the way to D.C., know…not that they will do anything to a card carrying member of the good old boys club, but we intend to take it further, deeper and to the conclusion as you have just crossed a line that there is no backing down from and this old cowboy is hankering for a fight.

In fact, while I have been typing these words our outstanding research staff has already traced you back to:

OrgName:        US DOI Bureau of Land Management
OrgId:          UDBLM
Address:        BLM NOC OC-330, Denver Federal Center, Bldg 40
City:           Denver
StateProv:      CO
PostalCode:     80225-0047
Country:        US
RegDate:        1994-07-07
Updated:        2009-06-23

I see it is National Operations Center in Colorado AGAIN that offends the public and squanders their money, hmmmmm…and we have two active law suits against your attempts to zero out two Colorado wild horse herds, I wonder if that is just a coincidence or design.  None the less we are off to Washington and the press and encourage the thousands of readers who visit here to do the same.  Trust me, you are NO match for this bunch of Boss Mares…your Chicken has just been cooked.  “Cluck, Cluck”

IP address of offender is: ,

The National Operations Center
PO Box 25047 Bldg. 50
Denver, Colorado 80225-0047
Telephone 303-236-6454


State Director: Helen Hankins
Phone: 303-239-3700

Associate State Director: John Mehlhoff
Phone: 303-239-3700


Director: Bob Abbey
Deputy Director (Operations): Mike Pool
Deputy Director (Programs and Policy): Marcilynn Burke
Chief of Staff: Janet Lin

BLM Washington Office
1849 C Street NW, Rm. 5665
Washington DC 20240
Phone: 202-208-3801
Fax: 202-208-5242

Let these people know that you have had enough of their abuse and for a BLM employee to suggest and recommend that we hunt, shoot and kill our national treasures is too much to bear.  The agency needs to be held accountable for this continued travesty because in the business world such transgressions would never fly.  Warm up your faxing and email finger because Bob Abbey’s gang just got caught with their pants down!!!