Horse News

Horseback Magazine Leads the Way to BLM Long Term Holding Facilities

(The News As We See It) by R.T. Fitch ~ Ex. Director of HfH Advisory Council

Press to get Inside Peek at BLM’s Wild Horse “Death Herds”

Laura Leigh and Terry Fitch at recent Twin Peaks Stampede ~ photo by R.T. Fitch

On October 27th the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) issued a press release stating that it would hold a “media day” at two of its mid-western wild horse long term holding facilities November 9th and within minutes Horseback Magazine (HB) editor Steven Long responded to the BLM’s Washington D.C. public affairs officer, Tom Gorey, chief HB photographer Terry Fitch would be in attendance.

Laura Leigh is a highly recognized and knowledgeable wild horse advocate while Terry Fitch has been present at several recent BLM wild horse stampedes and her award winning photos add the edge to Ms. Leigh’s reporting along with that of her husband, author R.T. Fitch.

It goes without saying that the tours will be a sanitized version of earlier BLM propaganda videos released to justify the destruction of our America’s iconic wild horses.  The facilities are classified as either “Mare” or “Gelding” specific where sexually alerted herds (same sex) live out their lives outside of their former family bands in an unnatural state simply waiting to die.  The cruelty of segregating normally gregarious horses into de-sexed herds is an act of inhumanity that is not recognized by the BLM.

The press release also contained new, shocking and unverifiable data on the number of federally protected wild horses that allegedly still remain on public lands.  Likewise the standard BLM mantra that wild horse herds double every four years is again repeated in an effort to justify the unlawful removal of protected wild horses from their congressionally protected public lands.  Dancing with numbers has recently landed the BLM in federal court where their poor data and junk science have been challenged by such well known animal advocacy groups as the ASPCA, Habitat for Horses, The Cloud Foundation and Front Range Equine Rescue.

135 replies »

  1. According to that YouTube, there should be 60,000 horses in holding, sincer it said there were 38,000 in Feb. of ’09–1 1/2 years ago. Again, thank you for all you do Laura, and you too, RT and Terry!

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  2. Excuse me–I think I’m going to be sick. How can they breed when there are only geldings/mares? no stallions. So why do they have to be separate from each other? I put mares and geldings out together. “sent to Bartlesville 20 years ago” ( like a prison sentence)–I suppose they’re used to being there by now. Slick little video– nice horsies– let’s watch another video–the one where the stallion breaks his neck— the one where they’re burying a dead horse…..

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  3. It is good to know that the two of you will be there!

    The bad news on this press release is the figures;

    37,800 wild horses and some burros are in 19 short term and 16 long term facilities
    or
    11,400 are in corrals and 26,400 are on Midwestern pastures

    There are thousands missing. It was said 3,000 recently but it would seem there are many more than that. We know horses die and we can accept that as we have seen many dying this past year even under the eyes of observers. But we also have been
    learning many hard truths and I hope they will be proven and brought to light as we continue to work for the betterment of all our wild ones, captive and free.

    Thanks BLM, you think we will say this is bad math? I think you are telling us something very sinister! mar

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    • 38,400 still running free? In your dreams BLM! That is an over estimation of 1/3 to 2/3 of the populations. There is no way there are that many still free. This is how they will continue to zero out herds with the official BS of over population which has been a lie for decades as you have whittled them down and put cattle and sheep and mines on their lands. Your entire ‘management’ is a farce. This insults the American people.

      We are the ones, the public, who should decide the fate of the wild herds and the captives, too. Not BLM ever. Let our horses go! mar

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  4. I am very proud of NM’s Gov. Richardson for standing up for what’s right for the wild horses. He has a lot of pressure against him, and so far he hasn’t backed down. As a native of NM, I will write him a letter of support, and I want to add encouragement all of my fellow advocates to do the same. The lack of progress over several years of effort is astounding. The NM project is something that CAN happen. Please help, everyone. It’s hard to keep the momentum going, but we must. We just must! If I, a staunch conservative can write a devoted liberal governer a love letter, so can you! 🙂

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    • Mmmm… not sure how my comment, above ended up in this thread. It was meant to follow the post about Gov. Richardson on NM needing our letters of support. Unfortunately, no ‘remove’ button.

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  5. If the horses are really that happy as the film shows – why isn’t BLM already doing the tourist thing? Why have they kept this such a secret al lthis time? Why do we even need Salazoo?

    I can answer that in part – without their free foaming nature in reporducing herds with little babies doing what little babies do – and stallions doing what stallions do – who wants to go see horses grazing? EEE Gads – I can drive to any horse ranch and see that now from the publc streets.

    I’ll be more interested in Laura and Terrys honest footage – but I can’t help wonder how much BLM is spending right now to get ready for this observation event – which should have always been taking place year round.

    Better late than never though – I don’t see this as a bad thing – unless it only happens this once.

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    • Roxy, there can not be any “honest footage”, because this is just going to be a very carefully orchestrated PR tour! The only thing they could do is that might mean something is to take lots of close ups of the freezebrands, to be able to determine how long those horses have been there? And to ask to see the logbooks, documentation of turnover and shipments and death rate. I doubt that the BLM will cooperate with such request, then again the books can be “fixed”. Sorry that I have to be the “Devil’s advocate”
      And Elaine I do understand the big picture is very important, we need to save ALL of the Mustangs! However that will take a very ORGANIZED effort of ALL not just Laure Leigh alone. And I am sorry I feel EVERY LIFE SAVED COUNTS!

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      • Larua and Terry’s footage will be honest – to the extent that BLM allows – I’m sure they have selected the two cream of the crop facilitys.

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  6. When I first saw this, there was a comment asking why there were no freeze brands. I watched it again and didn’t know what this person was talking about. Then, at the end, I saw at least one horse with no mark. These could be any horses, anywhere.

    Pretty horses, pretty pasture, pretty water … pretty fishy!!!

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    • Looks like pretty good cattle grazing land to me! Perfect place for happy cows…

      I watched it again also. And yes very fishy – in the first part supposedly long tern holding pastures – there is not one shot up close enough that caught any horses from their left side where freeze bands are placed.

      So we will see what Laura and Terry come back with. We really should not be complaining about this event (other than why so late and needs to occur regularly at all facilities) – we have been asking for access to these sites for years now.

      Someone said how can their be babies? The latter portion of the YouTube is of Utah Public lands – that is where they show the babies – there were no babies in the long term holding pasture shots.

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      • Okay, I guess since the black horse is in the “Utah” segment, that would explain no freeze brand. My bad.

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      • That is a very interesting observation Roxy…..the DOI is removing wild equines to accommodate cattle/sheep (among other interests) on public lands AND putting them on private land that would be perfect for cattle/sheep. Talk about your arce- backward thinking.

        If it wasn’t so sad, it would be very funny; definitely ironic though.

        Government practicality and methodology at it’s finest….NOT!

        Safe trip, calm weather and productive documenting for our equine warriors!

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      • Sorry. Should have read “arse-backwards”. Don’t want to get “awaiting moderation” flag for a^^.

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      • Denise – I wonder what a PI would turn up in any relationsips between these land owners and DOI personell or family/friends?

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      • Linda, not at all. You noticed something very important.

        I guess they thought we would not notice that all the shots of the supposedly wild horses no this pristine land would only be of their right sides – like horses only run from left to right when being photographed! Tells me they had to cut all the photos of the other side of the horses because there were no freeze brands. But I get carried away with conspiracy stuff.

        Looking forward to hearing about and seeing Laura and Terry’s experience.

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      • I know at least one of these Midwest pastures is in fact part of a generations old working cattle ranch. This is, I believe, the one in Pawhuska. The ranchers found it more lucrative to contract for LTH of wild horses than to raise cattle on that portion of their land. LTH is a sure thing – there is no fickle beef market to plunder planned profits so LTH becomes a sure thing, a way to stabilize part of their income, similar to the way we allocate our investments over different instruments to increase stability. If I were a rancher invested solely in cattle, I’d probably do the same thing.

        That particular facility does seem to be a virtual horse heaven with plenty of grass, ponds and acres to roam and it seems like pretty good people running the place. But, that’s still blunted by mare-only herds which are not exactly natural and the fact that the the public is shut out.

        For the family living there, I can understand not wanting to be a public facility even as I believe the public should have access to the wild horses in holding. As strongly as I feel we should have access, if I were them, don’t know if I would accept a contract where I had to open my doors to the public just because it’s one more thing to take away from raising a family there, ranch chores and the rest that goes into maintaining thousands of acres and animals. And the LTH fees paid do not exactly offer enough $$ to allow them to hire someone to be a “host” if they didn’t want to do it themselves.

        I am glad some access is being offered, that Laura and Terry will be there and hope something good comes of it.

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      • Kathleen – I don’t mean this personally towards you – please, please, please understand that – it is not your system or doing – but you have pointed out yet another layer of BLM rediculousness.

        And, sorry – I probably should not post as my animosity for this entire BLM scheme of things on every level is just too irksome for me to swallow.

        As far as I’m concerned tough if they don’t want the public to know about my public horses on their land at tax payers expense – so don’t take the horses at all due to some minor occasional inconveniences!

        Maybe if no one took them BLM would have to leave them on their home lands? Actually, sounds like, however unintentional, the decision to take the horses instead of having cattle is a direct cause of more cattle needed on Public Lands in the west? Sorry, I find only a little relief that these particular horses on this particular ranch are happy – and I’m sure the people probably love the horses ( I don’t know that without public eyes on all of them) but it all that washes out when I consider that I am paying for them. I feel that I already own plenty of land for the horses in the west and that I already pay taxes to manage those Public Lands for the benefit of the horses.

        I personally doubt that the horses will not go extinct on Public Lands – I may be wrong – so many here believe that is an ultimate goal of BLM – but consider that is not in BLM’s or Cattoor or Cook’s best interest – and science is now finding that roundups actually perpetuate “over breeding” – which results in more roundups – and the need for more of these warehouse ranches – $ka ching, $ka ching, $ka ching – for a “few”!

        Yeh – glad to help them out stabilizing their income with MY tax dollars and MY horses!

        For horses that would cost nothing, notta, zero, to leave where they were in the first place. Geez!

        But I know nothing – I’m just a rambling arse.

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  7. 38,400 wild horses still on the range. Notice how this number never changes? Even after annual removals of 10,000, 11,000, 12,000 horses. Talk about lack of scientific integrity. The WH&B takes the cake. And all the horses too.

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  8. Please ask for census figures for both pastures and the number of horses added each year and the number who have died.

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    • My thoughts exactly—ask to see an inventory of horses in and horses out(dead). Ask for average age of longevity—ask about vet care— According to an BLM Long Term contract the operators of the facility are only required to view the horses once a week. Ask lots of questions (and I know you will!)

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      • Funny about the once a week observation requirement because my Purina Equine feed product specifically states, “observe DAILY”.

        I’d ask what they do with the dead ones, where are the counts for that, frequency, how many have died at that facility and who is the vet, where is their medical treatment history log/records for treatment of ill or injured equines. What is the adoption success rate?

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      • Adoption out of Long Term Holding?? Not often and not even encouraged. Better to ask “How often do you sell whole truck loads of your confined horses and which do you choose for this distinction?” They go to slaughter this way, bought as sale authority out of the LTH. It is legal. It appears from the BLM ‘figures’ they are going at a regular rate on the last trip of their lives from these places. It is in the contract; must be able to load and receive horses at anytime. Our captives are so unsafe once they
        have met the contractors on their own ranges. The danger to them continues from there. mar

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  9. Of course you know I will be thinking of you every step of the way, and longer…;-> How about streaming live video? Those counts are way off, and yes, ask about horses in, horses out, all those things which I am sure you have in mind. THANK YOU FOR YOUR UNTIRING AND UNENDING EFFORTS!!!

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  10. Wow, the BLM PR team really does paint a pretty picture to fool the unsuspecting public. But once you know the truth, it leaves a different taste in your mouth to view it. Laura and Terry, I’m glad you’re going to be there. I know so many of us wish we were going with you. Since our taxpayer dollars are funding these so-called long- and short-term facilities, one would believe we had a legal right to view them all. I think the BLM should be made to give a detailed report to us taxpayers of how many horses and burros (broken down into mares, geldings, remaining stallions) at each facility and the location of each facility, along with how much money is given to each facility for the care of our wild horses and burros, also to include details of cost breakdowns for care provided (medical and feed, etc.) and number of deaths occurred and how they occurred. BLM won’t do it because they are hiding something, IMO. Horses, burros and taxpayer money disappearing down a black hole should be investigated and thoroughly reported to the public. We want an independent audit, BLM! It’s past time the BLM accounted for every wild horse, burro, and dollar. What was the Obama administration’s new rule? “Trust, but verify” I believe. Well, trust is something the BLM will never again have from us, so, moving on to “verify”. I wonder, could the FOIA help to produce documents to verify the numbers of wild horses and burros in holding and the actual dollars spent? Maybe, maybe not. It’s just my opinion, but I suspect someone is cooking the books.

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    • Yes, you can file a FOIA to find out the locations of all the holding facilities and anything else you’d like to know about each one. I highly recommend it. It is just a shame we have to file it to find out. This info should be readily available. One would think a CIA operative runs the WH&B Program.

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  11. Oh yes, lots and lots of more propaganda from the BLM. Sorry, but at this point in the game, I really cannot believe anything they have to say or “show” on video. Don’t worry everyone, the truth will prevail, have no doubt. Let’s just hope and pray that when it is known, it’s not too late for our wild ones. Keep the faith…our wild horse friends. You are the best, everyone of you that have shown the compassion, dignity, loyality and truth in seeing this through for no other cause but for the protection and freedom of these majestic creatures. Thank you all.

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  12. After watching that video, I’m afraid that all that comes to mind for me is…………what a joke! Tell them you want to see THAT facility, as well as the 14 no access facilities Laura mentioned.

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  13. They have 22,000 horses on 209,000 acres. Yet, in the wild, they say 1000 horses on 1.5 million acres is way too many.

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  14. What a “movie production”!!! Almost nauseating, because it is so fake! I also wonder how could Geldings and mares breed??? Only in the BLM “Wildhorse Expert’s” mind! Going to these BLM. Prop sites is a waste of time!What do you really expect to see? Is my question. I would like to see the Phony log books, but to go so far away for it?? Ask how much are these “contractors” getting paid??! It’s our money after all.

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  15. Why go then? One could save quite a few Mustangs from the BLM “Concentration Camps” from the $$$$ this trip will cost, to listen to the same old BS!!! This is my humble opinion….always thinking of the Mustangs first!!!

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    • It is VERY important to make a good showing of advocates at these events. The ‘normal’ press is likely to fall for their spin, and without the Fitches and the Leigh’s of the world being there with note pads and cameras in hand and mental gears turning, most people will never know the truth. The reason it’s justified to spend the $$$ on the trip and not on adopting a few horses is because we have to save ALL the horses with BIG public efforts like will come from this little visit. Saving a few wil horses is nice, but only nice for those few.

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  16. Even cow manure smells sweeter than this load of poo doo.

    Why would BLM take our horses off the rangeland to put them on private lands that to me look pristine–hay look out that might be prime cattle grazing.

    I’m going out to take a peeksee at Honeybandit–yes, I’m up here with this absolutely adorable mustang. Wait until you see my pics–they should be up and available in a day or two. You ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THE DIFFERENCE!

    Bandit is what mustang spirit is all about. I think Palomino said it best tonight. She said to someone–“Any fool can be on tv but not every horse can survive the BLM. Truer words were never spoken.

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  17. A 2 day/planned media event? The media and the public can go see Our Wild Mustangs and Our Wild Burros ANYTIME–FOR FREE– when they are left on Our Public Lands where they belong
    It is ONLY when they are REMOVED by the BLM/Department of Interior that they cannot be seen

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      • No, our public lands are very accessible and in recent years the horses have been discovered by many who have 4x4s and can get into the back country. You can camp and fish and bring your own horses and ride. It is a wonderful thing and I fear much of our accessibility will be lost as the private industry and the fences for cattle allotments continue to grow. There are rules, of course and fishing licenses are needed but our public lands, from BLM to our National Forests are a wonderful, low cost way for people to get out and Be in the wild. You can raft the rivers with permits and there is hunting. The horses HMAs are often tucked back into more remote places but Americans love the back country and those who know are out there using it. We have horse camps all along the back roads into the National Forest by us, right now, for deer season. Entire families are camped out even now. mar

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  18. Why don’t these bozos start arranging tours of actual wild horses in the wild? They’d be pretty popular and I would even pay a fee if it went to range maintenance. But, I guess they’d have to actually like wild horses and think they are beautiful to set something like that up.

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  19. Terry and Laura, I’m planning to contact the main horse advocate from the NYT tomorrow, and see if they can get there for the ‘Horse and Phoney Show’. I’m sure you agree that it would be important for you to hook up with them to provide balance if it can be arranged. I will let you know what I learn.

    If I were doing PR for the horses, I’d make a couple dozen DVD’s showing a lot of the online videos revealing abuse, injury, and death. I’d put my name, email, cell number, and blog UrL on the labels, and give one to every other press person there. That would give them ammo to help us fight with. I think that these George Knapp videos are some of the best at explaining what’s happening: (http://www.horsefund.org/wild-horses-right-now.php) politically. In fact, press packets for each press member presenting the horses’ side would be awesome! You could print off some of the posts from your blog. Use anything from http://www.ElaineNash.com that you want, any time.
    Please let me know if there’s anything I can do from NYC to help w/ this, if you agree that it’s a good move.

    Elaine Nash
    Nash New Media, NYC
    HoldYourHorses@aol.com

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    • Elaine, first I really like your web site – don’t know how I have missed your organization until now.

      I think your idea is great and I hope they can do that – even if its just handing out the “Facts” list from The Cloud Foundation Pages – but paying for it is always a challenge – perhaps Horseback Magazine could help with that?

      I would think a press kit including the CD’s from your site and George Knapps Channel 8 expose would blow their socks off – totaly unexpected from our volunteer and meeger sources – can such a kit be put together in this short amount of time?

      And, of course we don’t know who will be there or how many – how the heck to we get Rolling Stone and the like to dig into this?

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    • Hadn’t read this before. So exactly how many horses has John Hughes buried since 1994? Make sure to read Larry Johnson’s quote at the end. So disingenuous considering his actions. Rediculous!

      And I’m NOT a 14-year-old girl, but God bless ’em and send us more. Kids turned the tide for Velma, and we need them again to help save the disappearing wild ones. Science Fair/4-H projects, anyone?

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      • Lots of info on John Hughes on Google. Seems his cattle business was going down in profits. He’s in his 70s and has 2 sons to help him and he doubted his grandchildren would follow into the ranch life. He likes the stability of government paychecks. But what happens after Mr. John Hughes passes away? Are his 2 sons going to care for these horses? 3 people taking care of 2000 horses. That’s stretching it a bit thin. This is part of the difficulty of placing these icons in private hands solely for the consistent govt paycheck, especially when there is no accountability to the public.

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  20. Wasn’t long term holding legally questioned by a judge a while back? Since the horses areon land not originally occupied by wild horses.
    Another question–does the BLM consider a branded wild horse to be non-wild once processed and if so is there shelter for these horses in holding?

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    • This is a question we should all be asking..we are too late as usual..they are planning on “spaying mares in the field” probably with their usual brutal cow methadoligy vets, giving stallions “vasectomies” instead of gelding…expain both of these ideas to me?, since BLM and sheldon formed an unholy alliance..my suggestion is that this is an experiment done for BLM because on one hand they declared them ranch horses-& feral-and not subject to “rules” and on the other hand in the sheldon/blm document posted “they” acknowledge those are wild and free BLM mustangs that migrate in and out of the surrounding HMAs, which were many..now there was a lawsuit you could WIN! and yes-truckloads left when Leslie Peeples was there, and it was not to any LTH..but to auction yards..WHERE WERE WE???

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      • Sandra, just musing – but perhaps they know that PZP is a failure – and some good intentions think that sterilizing some to many mares (do we have any particulars about this program?) for once and for all will reduce herd size growth – thus reduce roundups?

        (though in my whackadoodle conspiracy world I think all these things they do are actually to “increase” over breeding, thus assure them of roundups forever)

        If they just did this on a very limit number of herds and then stopped and watched what happens for 5 to 10 years without a round up it might turn out to be the lesser of 2 evils? Perhaps at least enough so to be able to resort to more bait trapping instead of helicopters?

        I know we talk about BLM as if they are one part and parcel – but we know from reports of BLM in New Mexico they use a lot of bait trapping, leave the elders, keep band families together, many things we advocats have been asking for. Though I do think they have also tried PZP, at least part of their program is more thoughtful than Nevada and others.

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      • Sterilizing the mares and vasectomies for the studs makes them look normal. I do think that the operations on the mares is extreme and is experimental being it is in the field on a wilds animal. Very Mengele! No point at all. Mares died before and will again. They are just being absurd. No other wildlife is treated this way in North America.

        We need to contact Sheldon, as many of us as want to do this, and ask; Where can i buy a Sheldon/Calico wild horse? Or; are any Sheldon/Calico horses up for adoption, I heard they were, where are they? These herds have intermingled and migrated into each others HMAs for ages. But let’s see what they say. Monday….

        I sent your question to Laura, Marge. I do hope she has some news.
        Rox, BLM is not doing the sterilization but the USFWS? I hope i got it right. I should know by now. mar

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      • Mar, regarding sterilization – Sandra’s post is not the first I have heard of this, but I only heard it alluded to before and don’t remember where that was – impossible to keep up with all the information.

        I would like to know more too.

        Sandra, can you direct us to some links for more on this?

        I had at one time suggested this for mares in holding as a means to get them released from holding – which I saw a such a horrible place – but apparently at least some are living a beautiful life – however I object to paying for this when they could have been left on their home ranges for ZERO. Actually better than zero – get the cattle and sheep off – that speical intersts welfare system is in the RED and produces nothing for the citizens supporting it.

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  21. I am sorry for posting so much to this article, but I just cannot understand how cattle are allowed to stay on arid western lands and WILD HORSES are shipped to fenced in pasture lands in the midwest. I grew up in Iowa and this logic is escaping this old midwestern gal. It makes no sense to me at all.

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  22. I’ll say it like it is.This is such BS. They need to show those long term holding pens, where there are thousands of our Wild Ones being held in horrific conditions. No shelter from the blistering heat, no shelter from the bitter wind & ice & snow. What a crock of horse crap. Who are they kidding here? They make us look like a bunch or uneducated idiots! We need to get somebody, legal or not to the other facilities & post that on youtube. Expose these criminals for the criminals they are!

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    • Though I would not call them criminals exaclty – more like selfish and inconsiderate of who is supporting their lifestyles – they are sure making a pretty penny out of my tax dollars and can stand a little incovenience for some obsrevations and reporting from independents on the conditions. And as someone said on another blog all these horses in holding should be up for adoption. And if they were, how is someone supposed to adopt them when no one is allowed to see them?

      Sorry you family ranchers who are warehousing MY horses with MY tax dollars so you can have a speical interest stable lifestyle – thats all fine a dandy as long as they are all up for adoption, they are all open to the public on at least occasion, and the program is not in the red – perhaps it was never thought of this way – well, today is the first day of the rest of your life!

      Gads, I am on a roll these days about where tax dollars are going including tax incentives, tax breaks, all this corporate and special interest welfare – ENOUGH! An then I suppose these ‘rank’ all complain about the stimulus money that helps us drolls out here who are barely making ends meet yet still suposed to pay taxes to support all these “special” people – ugh, excuse me!

      I’m not a Tea Partier, but cutting all this BS should be on the top of their cutting government list – oh, wait Sharon Angle is pro BLM and pro anti wild horse!

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  23. Savewildhorses–all of it has been done because they can–might makes right. They will only be stopped when they are MADE TO STOP. It was a MISTAKE to entrust these valuable herds and our public lands to this agency in the first place. That was done a long time ago and we weren’t there when it was done–but WE ARE HERE NOW.

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  24. “We stood fast and got the court to agree that damage is done to American citizens when the BLM pulls our wild mustangs from their rightful land.”

    Horse thieves — they are thieves–put the citizens’ horses back on the citizens’ public lands. BLM is to manage the herds on their rightful lands–not on somebody’s private land. Damage! They need to be taken to court and taken apart! Why doesn’t Congress speak up? Why is Washington DC afraid of BLM? I am getting very angry….. (again)..

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    • This is why I say adopt a horse or a family band Because we are denied the channels which should have by now led to stopping this monstrous attack on the wild herds.

      This is horse theft of the horses belonging to the American people. 100% agree. mar

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      • Please excuse my lack of knowledge … but in all seriousness how could one adopt a family band after they have been gathered and separated at the short term and perhaps long term facilities? How can I find a particular horse (and family) that I know was gathered at Twin Peaks? There is one horse (and his family) that I am particularly interested in sponsoring/adopting but am at a loss as to where to start finding him/them and how to go about his adoption and then where to keep him [wild prefered] through a sponsorship of some sort … and what would the cost be? I am serious [but not wealthy!] and would like to do what little I can … and my daughter and sister in law are very interested in helping with the sponsorship also. The last I heard he was in Litchfield Nevada but that was in August. I would appreciate ideas from someone who has been through this before. Thank you. Sometimes it is one “baby step” at a time …

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      • This is, at this point, difficult as observers were kept so far away from the pens when horses came in and even as they were approaching. Elyse has Freedom’s mare identified from her photos and Sandra will try to identify Gray Beard’s mares and foal from Carol Walker’s pics just as he was found up here in Canon City with those pics. If horses have been photographed previous to a roundup or during, they may be identified. Some herds have watchers who know all the horses like Pryor has Ginger and Matt, and TJ Holms at Spring Creek and now many others who know these horses on sight. We have needed all along to get out and know our wild herds. Gray Traveler from Spring Creek Basin was mistakenly removed in a roundup and people had to use photos to get him back from BLM. This is the story within the film, “Disappoinment Valley, A Modern Day Western” by James Kleinert. This is how people are able to save many horses that have been captured and they have seen them in the wild or in photos. It is why our horses need to be documented throughout the process of capture and remval because the BLM ;system; is full of holes and individuals and families are lost. In fact, as CJ can attest, whole herds disappear. But it is possible and it is used all the time. Many BLM facilities managers are approached to find horses and many have helped the adopters find them. It is sad we do not have a databank as yet. When we do a horse will be able to be found at any time in his/her life. mar

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      • GG, I think you need to approach Elyse Gardner and ask her advice. She and Laura spent not just hours but days looking at photos of Calico horses in order to track down the ones they were looking for and for others. The photos from anyone there on the date you think they were captured is a start. Talk to folks at Litchfield. You might be surprised and someone will remember the horses in question. It is possible if you get on this right away. You can request time to visit a facility for your own search, also. I met a man at Broken Arrow who was looking for a specific filly and was there with special permission to look. Do start asking and looking. You may find all of them. Good luck. I hope you can help them! mar

        Like

      • This is what i am going to do with my “free Grey Beard” facebook page…given the fact I have never done this before and no one has posted a roadmap, and that I am 1/2 way across the US from where he is being held..could not search for him in person..but again, it illustrates the importance of photograhers and real time face book reporting that carol walker did at Adobe..she blew up a couple of photos for me, as 3/4 of the adobe town horses were gray which showed a very distinctive double hoofprint on his left shoulder..the amazing thing..shen she blew the photo up it looked like a W on his shoulder…gods message to carol Walker i guess and a verdistinctive pink marking on his muzzle and lower lip..for years before DNA testing breeders marked in all markings on the foals papers to identify individuals..works pretty dang good, thourbreds use swirls of hair drawn in..The first thing you have to do is to identify the stallion before he gets gelded…the way they have escalated the speed of this..it needs to be done immediately..I was on the phone leaving a message as Grey Beard was traveling from WYO to Colo-letting them know when he should be arriving..that semi had 34 studs on it..easier to identify him now in this group than when he would be turned into a population of 1,000 studs..This would be so much easier if we had access to the facilities..but you have to be cleared by the prison itself before entering..you need your adoption papers filled out..which is something we should all do..they are good for a year..just in case..I kept saying I was going to do this..this will give you access to see horses in holding..we should all do this..i am working on mine now..even tho I plan to send him to a wild and free sanctuary..I can change it later..and who knows maybe I will have to send him to my place if I haven’t found one by Dec 7, as he has to be removed by their first adoption day..anyone this is what i want to do at his page..to pass on what i learn so that an ordinary person going through this has some idea of what to expect and what lions pits i have fallen into..stay tuned

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      • Grandma Greg, I applaud you for attempting this direction. Mar has given you best information.

        You might also try contacting Makendra or Ginger directly at The Cloud Foundation – since they have successfully done this themselves – though they now need money to relocate the Freedom horses.

        Its my impression that it is very ‘hands on’ and up to you to know the horses well enough to pick out band members at the adoption events and depends on the gather. Pryor kept they family bands together as does apparently New Mexico, maybe others. Pryor also held the adoption event of the Pryor horses almost immediatly and locally so the herd horses were still together.

        Now we have this new BLM method of shipping the horses directly to training or secret holding – you used to be able to adopt the horses immedialty after the gather – I don”t know why this has apparently changed – seems like the best first step rather than the cost of shipping them all over the place.

        Another approach might be getting in with BLM themselves – expressing your wishes up front and provding evidence that you can finanacialy and physicaly do this – you might be able to arrange something – I don’t know. We have all seen the struggle of Pickens and Kundra to arrange something – but on a larger scale.

        Good luck.

        Like

  25. If the BLM ever “protects” me as they are “protecting americas wild horses” I am going to charge them with rape, as that is the only thing I can equate it too and then blaming the victim for “forcing them to do it” My rule..Donot remove more horses from the land than you can adopt..such small numbers could be gotten with bait trapping..you cannot adopt out the old horses so leave them where they are.

    Like

  26. to RT on the truth squad radio show–10/24 ?? didn’t Marti say that the horses belong to the state?? If this is so, can’t the state say cease and desist to BLM?? What is BLM’s “power”? Is there a transcript of that show? Lots of good info.

    Like

  27. SHELDON Wild Horses and Burros:

    There is a website that has all federal contracts (near future [synopsis and solicitation] through ammendments and then finally the anouncement of the award of the contract). It is called “FedBizOps.gov”. It can be a bit of a challenge to learn but worth it for those willing. As for the Sheldon wild ones, I have not found the award [yet] but here is the solicitation. Perhaps some of us will want to put this FedBizOps on our “favorites” and check now and then for any BLM or Fish and Wildlife Service contracts? (Also, sometimes you can find this information by googling it – including this one).

    Transportation and Adoption of horses from Gathers held at Sheldon-Hart NWR.
    Solicitation Number: 10181AR501
    Agency: Depart me nt of the Interior
    Office: Fish and Wildlife Service
    Location: CGS-WO

    Like

  28. As for the upcoming visit by Laura and Terry – it is much needed and I thank you for having the energy and knowledge to do this.
    As for the rest of us who will not be going, how about we become productive and make a list of questions that we would ask if we were attending. I know Laura and Terry are very capable of doing this but perhaps we can help them. Most of the ranting in the previous blogs is good … especially the numbers not matching (has anyone found that BLM figures are ever verifiable?- read Hope Rydan’s book!) and the idea of not putting geldings and mares together (which [to me] would at least allow a “more” natural environment) and how about monthly “open house” for the public to see our captive animals [no “host” required] and even better how about a few “turn outs” from the adjoining public roads so that anyone can check on them anytime and I think the statistics (animals coming and going [and dying] from facility) and especially the vet reports of the facility should be available online at all times. By the way, these facilities in Oklahoma and Kansas are in very cold and snowy terrain … so don’t let those “beautiful green pastures” in the video fool you. And how about asking [your BLM host] Debbie Collins why the cost of a cow [or other livestock] on BLM land is only $1.35 per month per head and we are paying $70.04 per month [per my last calculations] to transport and keep these wild ones at the long term facilities. None of us want our wild ones to be confined but until we can prevent it … the least we can do for them is to scrutinize their care. Remember the three strikes ranch wild horse abuse!

    Like

    • I (and many others – those verbal or not) thank ALL persons who are doing anything to educate others as well as to take any positive action to help our wild ones. This effort is so important for our future generations … not only so that they can “see” the wild ones but so that they will #1 know that the wild ones are “out there” and #2 so that they will know that WE care and that THEY must care also.

      Like

    • Gratitude to the Unknown Instructors

      What they undertook to do
      They brought to pass;
      All things hang like a drop of dew
      Upon a blade of grass.

      -William Butler Yeats

      Like

  29. Timothy J Harvey–from New Hampshire is the Humane Advocacy appointee to BLM. What does he have to say about BLM “gather” methods/ spaying/neutering/death stampedes etc. We don’t gather horses in NH –they aren’t wild free roaming — what is his role as humane advocate? What is humane treatment of a wild horse? Just curious.

    Like

    • This is just my personal opinion, akin to dog breeding and the 5 million dogs put down every year – I find it obscene that people are breeding captive mustangs and then selling them while 33,000 languish in long term holding pens!

      I know they are using the proceeds to support the sanctuary – but this is just wrong on so many levels and does not solve the problem, actually perpetuates it – every foul they breed could have been one horse taken out of LTH. In fact, whatever type horse one breeds and then sells – same thing. Just my opinion.

      Like

  30. Black Hills Wild Horse Sanctuary is private according to their website. The founder sounds like a person we would all like to meet. Here is a link to a book on wild horses that he published.
    http://www.daytonohyde.com/allthewildhorses.html

    My main concern with a private wild horse sanctuary is that there is a legal proceedure in place when the founder/owner passes. Heck, guess we should all put the animals we love and care for in our wills or at least provide instructions for their care if we “go” before they do.

    Like

  31. If you have cable/satellite and get Comedy Central, the Jon Stewart/Steven Colbert D.C. Rally is on now. Check out the crowd … AMAZING! How do we get these guys on board for the wild ones?

    Like

    • I only have basic programming so I don’t get that station.

      How does one speical interest group get prime time coverage on “public tv” and another only on a chanel that is not available to the general publc? This is BS – just more for me to be angry about on Tuesday!

      Like

  32. Mar, Sandra and Roxy,
    Thank you all for your advice about my dream to adopt … it is a dream that I hope will come true.

    Like

  33. Checked up on the Internet Adoption page. Mantle Ranch has a few horses posted. Don’t know how many will get homes. They certainly don’t compare with the Burns horses in color and appearance, but they have been handled to a degree.

    Decided to check the Facilities for adoptable horses and found this AWESOME filly at Mantle. No date on the post, so she may be gone already. Why do I keep falling in love?
    https://www.blm.gov/adoptahorse/horse.php?horse_id=4036

    This one made me cry. Moms and babies that should be free on their home ranges are now at Canon City.
    http://www.coloradoci.com/serviceproviders/whip/index.html?intro

    SIGH!!!

    Like

    • click main gallery to see the adoption closing dates. don’t think that pretty filly has any bids yet. even so many go for just 125.00, go to some nursemare or breeding farm.
      because the BLM doesn’t promote their adoption much at all!!

      Current Time is Oct 31, 2010 10:28:09 AM Central Time
      Bidding will end soon!
      Bidding will end in 3 days, 1 hour, 31 minutes and 51 seconds

      Like

      • The filly isn’t up on the main Internet Adoption page. Only under BLM Facilities/Mantle Ranch, so someone would have to contact Steve Mantle to find out about her. Maybe he deliberately kept her out of the IA because he’s trying to get a better price or (hopefully) doesn’t want this lovely girl going to “just anyone”.

        Like

      • Well, that was depressing. A far cry from the BLM video of the LTH faciltiy or what Kathleen described of one in her area.

        The Oregon bunch are certainaly lively and well presented, but the Piney Woods, MS (Missouri?) bunch don’t look all right to me – they look depressed – no spark in their eyes. Specialy sad all the ones born in holding or obviously rounded up as 1 and 2 months olds – never known anthing else – they definatley have a disinterested look about them – those are the ones I would like to see runing in green pastures instead of Piney Woods.

        Why can’t Oregon or Piney Woods put a nice description the way Mantel does? Too much bother?

        Every one of the 40,000 in holding should be on the web site – otherwise its lilke keeping the dead soldiers caskets secret from the press – no way to understand the manitude or reality!

        I do like 9944 – what a cute freckled face!

        Like

    • I believe this filly was offered in BLM’s September internet adoption. There were 3 bids placed on her. Could it be that all the potential adopters declined to accept ownership and the filly is still available?

      Thanks for the Canon City link.

      Like

  34. Has anyone ever seen this documentation and if not, then don’t you think we need to see it? Per BLM (excerpt taken from the Augusta EA attached link):
    Euthanasia at long-term holding facilities:
    This section sets euthanasia policy for the BLM at long-term holding (LTH) facilities including those that may be added in the future.
    The BLM Wild Horse and Burro (WH&B) Specialist responsible for oversight of the LTH facility (the Project Inspector) and the LTH contractor will evaluate all horses and their body condition throughout the year. Once a year a formal body condition evaluation as well as a formal count of all horses at long-term holding facilities will be conducted. The action plan for the formal evaluation is as follows:
    The evaluation team will consist of a BLM WH&B Specialist and a veterinarian acceptable to BLM.
    DOCUMENTATION for each animal euthanized will include sex, color, and freeze/hip brand (if readable). Copies of all documentation will be given to the contractor and retained by the BLM.

    Like

  35. All things LTH have been kept from us. If someone can apply for this with FOIA they should. I have not heard of this although I have wondered what oversight, if any, BLM has at these places. Good find, Grandma! This would be a very interesting read, indeed. mar

    Like

      • Will add the the list of people to contact tomorrow… one can only try.

        Laura H, They hear you and all of us and their answer to all of us is a resounding silence. Maybe they will talk/respond at some point but do not expect it. When we make suggestions and see what is needed we are doing what they ought to be- improving and correcting what is all so wrong. But the existence of the WH&B Program is limited to the having wild horses and they are in small quantities now.

        Why don’t you just let us have them, BLM? If we had the budget you have had the past 10 years we would have one beautiful program! mar

        Like

  36. Please ask the BLM to list ALL the long term horses for public adoption. There is NO earthy reason why these horses have a life sentence with NO chance of a real home!!!

    Many of the older horses that were 3 strikes horses and OLD sale authority (saved from the horse killer meduna) , trained wonderfull !!!

    Please ask the BLM why there are no 24/7 live streaming webcams on their website… All the forest service and state parks and cities too have 24/7 webcams up.

    The BLM needs to install these webcams on all facilities, long and short term and place the public links on their website!! please ask the question! they have ignored ALL always.

    Like

  37. Just thinking out loud…
    Another question to consider asking:
    Why aren’t the captured WH&B “chipped” before release or sent to a holding facility. I understand that this is a very minor and very inexpensive procedure (done on most household pets these days). Having these animals ID chipped eventually would allow:
    #1 Accurate census (very BIG problem, as we know)
    #2 Accountability for adopted animals
    #3 Information for scientific studies such as:
    a) PZP effectiviness
    b) range/water damage causes – livestock or WH&B
    c) genetic viability and genetic defects of herds
    Transparency and accountability of BLM management activities and procedures.

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  38. I was just browsing the 1971 act and found this. This contradicts some reports we have been given that BLM took wild horses from private land even when the land owner objected. What’s up with that?

    “Sec. 4. If wild free-roaming horses or burros stray from public lands onto privately owned land, the owners of such land may inform the nearest Federal marshall or agent of the Secretary, who shall arrange to have the animals removed. In no event shall such wild free-roaming horses and burros be destroyed except by the agents of the Secretary. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit a private landowner from maintaining wild free-roaming horses or burros on his private lands, or lands leased from the Government, if he does so in a manner that protects them from harassment, and if the animals were not willfully removed or enticed from the public lands. Any individuals who maintain such wild free-roaming horses and burros on their private lands or lands leased from the Government shall notify the appropriate agent of the Secretary and supply him with a reasonable approximation of the number of animals so maintained.”

    Like

    • Yes, Roxy. For example, the approximate 50 horses that are to be removed during the Augusta roundup … did the land owner(s) notify BLM and request these animals to be removed and if so where is the documentation of this request? Perhaps we should ask BLM to let us see this documentation.

      Like

    • I see no information about the location or owners of the private property on the Augusta EA but do think this is worth an email to that BLM office and the names of those in charge (Jerome Fox etc) are on the EA and their email addresses/phone numbers would be available on the BLM website. I did look at the BLM maps and see very very little amount of private land near the HMA … interesting. Anyway, VERY good idea and the sooner the better and be sure and ask for a receipt for your email as well as for a timely response and then let us all know what you find out … I will try to do the same but am still reading the EA and working on my Augusta comment.

      Like

      • Try going to the Winnemucca district office website,click on Get Involved,then click on Land Use Planning/ Nepa, then scroll down to Grazing Permit Renewals, then click on the JerseyValley, Hole in the wall grazing renewals. I believe these allotments make up most of the Augusta HMA. There might be some information there,

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      • according to the rules for issuing these permits you are supposed to have private land which connects in order to qualify

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      • Sandra – see my other blog re: Jersey Valley Cattle Company … likely it is them but not sure since they are not identified anywhere that I can find.

        Like

  39. I have a question – is Navada the only one with the checkerboard private/public lands scheme? Or is that the case in other wild horse areas too. If so, how many and where are they, or how do I look that up myself?

    The only other wild horse area that has been reported extensively is Pryors, thanks to Ginger Kathrens and Cloud, and that is not checkerboarded as far as I can tell.

    Like

    • Best that you look this up on google but from what I can remember of high school history … part of the checkerboard land pattern originally came from the government giving public land to the railroads for their right-away to build the trans continental railroad … something like every other section on either side of the tracks. I am sure there is a LOT more to the story but that’s a start.

      Like

    • Adobe Town is a checkerboard and the private ranchers actually have had a contract with BLM saying the horses could be there that runs out this year. There are many other places including CA.

      If a request has been made to remove horses it is usually on the original paperwork. We do see those online… it may also be on the Decision for the roundup after the EA has been commented on… I don’t think this is consistent, tho’. mar

      Like

    • Salt wells adjoing adobe town is the worst I have ever seen, owned by state of WYO ranchers and mineral seeking corporations as well as blm..this was not caused by railroads, and yes land adjoining railroads were deeded, but most of the land lost from HMAs was sold or traded away by the BLM-and has accelerated

      Like

    • No, I do not belive so.

      but here is nothing prohibiting BLM for selling the older or 3 strickes horse by the truck load.

      Those “good” family ranchers with all their supposed family values and pristine “stable” lifestyles (stable at MY expense – thank you very much!) – they don’t want any obersvers ever to disrupt their special self intitled privacy – but they don’t mind the trailers hauling off 25 at a time off to slaughter? Hum?

      Like

    • It depends if the horses are considered feral or not. Old herds who did not make it onto the Act’s designated range because the horses are on private property can be caught and trained or caught and sold. Feedlot sales are the kill buyers territory. Too many horses have gone this route. Adopted horses and other wild horses we would like to find out how they end up in this pipeline to slaughter, too. mar

      Like

    • Whew! That is something! We definalty seem to have come to be living in a world where the inmates are running the asylem for the criminally insane.

      Remember the Tennesee thing where all the people were stripped of their land and homes and it was flooded to produce a lake?

      That is what should happen on Public Lands – figuratively of course. Just kick all the ranchers along with their sheep and cattle in the you know what – “out of here!”

      This is an excelent project for the Tea Party to eliminate a government department and government waste if there ever was one.

      Like

  40. J.T.
    You were so correct! The Jersey Valley Cattle Company just got a 10 year grazing permit for the Augusta HMA [see maps] PRELIMINARY ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT LLNV-W01000-2009-0003-EA
    [last known cost is $1.35 per head of livestock per month grazing fee from BLM – grazing costs on private land vary but are much much higher]
    PLUS between the years 2005-2008 they received $120,940 in USDA farm Subsidies.
    … AND THEY STILL INSIST ON REMOVING/STERILIZING THE WILD HORSES on that HMA …

    Like

  41. They are all PRIVATELY OWNED BY CATTLE RANCHERS, that much is known.

    Two years ago I tried to find out where the long term holding facilities were located for nearly a week, after one dead-end phone call after another (hm) I wound up with a vacant office in Kansas City, MO. Very clever folks. Very clever.

    Like

  42. Ok I emailed Lilly Thomas of the BLM about the Sheldon Mustangs.

    Here is her response to me:

    “Since the BLM does not have any jurisdiction over the Sheldon wild horses
    we have no idea where they went. You will need to contract the Sheldon
    refuge.”

    Lili Thomas
    National Wild Horse and Burro Program
    Reno Nevada Office
    775-861-6457

    I also emailed Deb Collins but have not heard back.

    Like

  43. I’d definitely ask about the “Sale Authority’ older horses, bluntly, if they are shipped out to slaughter, or “sold by the truck load”?? And don’t take bologna for answer!!

    Like

  44. These were my waking thoughts today – actually dreamed about this all night in fits of sleep. This topic of warehousing surely has lit my fire!

    This is not meant to demonize the ware housers or judge them – they judge themselves. But here are the facts of the matter, presented in a fictional story, not intended to represent any real person, whether in correct chronological order or not, in narrative from their point of view:

    “I own a cattle ranch in the mid west. It a business and my preferred particular way of life for me and my family. However, cattle ranching is a rocky undertaking (whine) and I’m feeding the USA (well; actually only 3% of the beef from my industry stays on shore – but that’s enough isn’t it?). I’m lucky though – I own adequate land for my cattle business so I don’t have to lease grazing land – which would a pretty penny in my neck of the woods. I read my special interest ranching quarterly to see if there are any more new tax breaks for me and see that some of my business peers are getting 1 million dollars, some more, a year “steady” income for warehousing BLM wild horses. What a great business plan! So I ship my cattle to a Public Land ranch where I only pay $1.13 for cow/calf pair instead of market value, because my neighbors, my fellow citizens, fork over 1 billion dollars a year to support that program – those cattle displace the wild horses on the Public Lands – then I get my 1 million to put the displaced wild horses on my pristine cattle grazing land. Now, I don’t ‘mind’ taking care of the wild horses (cockroaches my western peers tell me), but I don’t want my fellow citizens, that actually are giving me directly the 1 million a year, and indirectly the 1 billion a year out of their incomes, suffering for the horses torn from their own rightful lands, disrupting my lifestyle or privacy – so no investigators every few months or so to see how I treat them and to report back to my fellow citizens. Which other than military secrets this is the only business in the USA that allows me this secrecy. Besdies, I already have to deal with the dead ones and those trucks coming to bring me more old and unadoptable 3 strikes horses and then there all those other trucks coming to take 25 of the ‘sale” authority horses every once in a while – that is enough bother for me – I mean there are limits to what 1 million should entail – right?

    Yippee for me! And what a good example I set!”

    Like

    • First of all the BLM likely used a buddy to get their first contracts perfected. The contract comes first and is take it or leave it… done the way BLM wants. They do not like the idea of people coming around and forbid it. They have kill buyers to protect who are about the only ones who will buy a truck trailer load of wild horses. They are bound for slaughter. They do not want the public to butt in. They do not make the contractors locations available because then we might know who is buying our horses, how many and where they are taking them to slaughter; Mexico or Canada. Most LTH is in a convenient middle area.. but closer to Mexico.

      This is the reality and when you look at the figures they have fed the public these past few years and the ones they just released, thousands of our wild ones have been sold through sale authority and driven to slaughter. They havetried in every way to avoid the public because this was what Wild Horse Annie fought and we fought when we were young and it was the Burns Amendment that allowed this to be done in significant numbers. It negates the 1971 Act directly. So how can it be legal???? You cannot have it Both Ways, BLM! mar

      Like

      • I suspect there are many such “buddies”, even relatives?

        Heck, If I had money to buy (or inherited) some Nevada lands and get the lease on Public Lands, and then buy (or inherit) a cattle ranch in the mid west I’m getting rich on both ends – double dipping my fellow citizens with this program – what a great legal business plan – all I need are the chumps to fork over their tax dollars out of their incomes!

        SWEET DEAL!

        Sweet enough for the Tea Party to destroy? It would reduce the deficit by gutting a huge government dapartment AND cut taxes in one fell swoop!

        Like

  45. This link will tell you all about the Sheldon Mustangs. Includes an article written by Marla Bennett about the Sheldon horses.

    http://www.strawberrymountainmustangs.com/mustangs

    There is no mention of wild horses on the Sheldon Refuge website.

    Also I heard back from Debbie Collins.

    Hi Marge. As you know, the Sheldon horses are not under BLM jurisdiction.
    So, as my colleague, Lili Thomas, has also advised you, I recommend you
    contact the Sheldon folks. If you have additional questions about BLM
    gathered horses, please feel free to contact us at 866-468-7826. Thank
    you.

    ************************************
    Debbie Collins
    Bureau of Land Management
    National WH&B Team
    (405)790-1056 = desk
    (918)625-5292 = cell

    Like

    • http://www.fws.gov/sheldonhartmtn/sheldon/horseburro.html

      When I look at the pictures, being retired fire department/prevention – I see a well manicured LOW FIRE HAZARD on the left – and WILD FIRE IN THE MAKING on the right – but that’s just me perhaps.

      Plus there is no way to determine that horses were the only grazers. Are there cattle? Of course there are deer and antelope and probably havelina, etc.

      They do not address these horses as wildlife at all – only as feral non-native. They need to be taken to task on that and we need to demand DNA testing of the gathreed horses if we can.

      I don’t see where they say they are removing ALL horses and burros though – says pretty clearly that teh goal is to retain 200 – 300?

      And they say their vistors are concerned with the damage done by horses – really – those visitors are all environmental biologists that can make that determination?

      At least they are attempting to leave the older horses on the range – even if sterillzed I have to give them some kudos for that.

      Like

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