Press Release from the BLM
More to this Story ~ Photo by Katie Fite
A news article published today provided inaccurate information alleging that a dead horse observed on the range had been “driven” to its death during gather operations. The BLM is addressing this report here because it was not based on any first-hand knowledge of the events, and was founded instead on speculation that provides an inaccurate record.
The facts surrounding the mortality addressed in the news article are that on July 11, when there were no gather operations taking place, the contractor and the BLM Nevada Chief Ranger found a severely injured mare and a young foal with broken front legs on the side of a steep canyon wall. Both animals were humanely euthanized and their remains left on-site. The BLM did not “drive” horses to their death in the rocks – as speculated in the news article, given that these wild horses were more than five miles from the area gathered on July 10, and no gathers occurred on July 11.
Wild Horse on ledge before shot by David Cattoor from Chopper ~ Photo by Cattoor Livestock
BLM did not report these two deaths as part of its daily mortality log, because that log documents mortalities for wild horses that are gathered. The BLM was not conducting operations to gather this horse or any excess wild horses within this area either prior to or at the time when these horses were found, therefore the two wild horse deaths were not associated with gather operations. BLM Nevada is examining its reporting methods to better document all wild horse deaths that occur or are found during gather operations.
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Categories: Horse News, Wild Horses/Mustangs
Straight from the Horse's Heart 
pooh pooh… this just adds to the general BS. mar
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Thanks RT, I am doing a childrens book and had Shoshoni’s father shot from helicopter.
Shoshoni is a real wild horse taken from Johnnie Herd area in January 2007 as a yearling. Spend two years in holding. He is now with Madeleine.Just was in Washington DC.May 20th . He will be part of Pony Express in September and in the Rose Bowl Parade.
His story will be made known and read in the White House.
Thanks again,I was having trouble doing the shooting scene even though I knew shooting done by BLM contractors.
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It’s great that you’re writing a children’s book about mustangs.
Although it is an ugly truth that wild horses are sometimes shot or run to death by BLM contractors, it does seem a bit harsh to put that in a children’s book. As a former elementary teacher, I wonder whether putting quite that clear a picture of the demise of a mustang might be overly disturbing to young children. Studies show that when exposed too vividly to harsh realities like that, the cheif mechinism for coping is to ‘shut it out’, including blocking the whole ‘plight’ forever in order to prevent having to revisit the disturbing mental picture created by a visual or verbal description that is too explicit for children to take in and manage.
I believe that we want our children to grow up to be involved and interested in keeping mustangs alive, not shunning any mention of them because of a bad childhood experience. Helping children love horses will do the job, and an exciting but less disturbing mustang story will help fuel that fire.
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Appreciate the input. The illustrator and editors are reviewing.
I have a test audience of parents , children and childrens bookstore owners. I would enjoy more of your input.
September family meeting at old home place on the rez for celebration and time with Cloud and the herd. My brothers and I spent so many happy days as children playing there fifty years ago. Shoshoni came along for me when roundup stopped last year.
I was having horrible time with mustang adoption.
Please email me.
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As a child, I read Bambi and every horse book of Henrys..the plight of those animals affected me deeply and made me the person I am today..I was strongly impacted, but in a way that moved me for the rest of my life…to the point that I knocked my mothers gun up in the air at age 9 so she did not shoot a doe who had 2 fawns with her..So my vote..would be..write the story!
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It is rare these days that anything can drag me off the wild horse topic..but in a sense this is interwoven:
Insulating and protecting children from realities, is not what books, art or chronicles of history is about..Its why we quit burning books in public librarys..too many psycologists and not enough realism..children are on computers non stop..playing games, and killing “things” that have no reality for them, no sense of humanity and where they fit into that.. How do you expect them to grow up with compassion and humanity if you do not expose them to the events that bring on those feelings..Kudos to those parents who encourage their children to feel and act on their compassion, raise money for disaster victims ect..teach them that they -through their actions can relieve suffering and wrongdoing in their world. Most people only care about walking that mile in their own shoes, and do I want a new pair…
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WHere I teach, what’s happening to the horses is mild as to what these kids live with, but even if it weren’t, I disagree, I read “Beautiful Joe” as a child and it began my lifelong compassion for animals. My grandchildren know what is happening out west and why I don’t buy meat at the big grocery chains, etc. Besides, what kids are exposed to nowadays in media makes a story like this not too disturbing actually. They need to know the truth, not the candy coated version of it, i think kids are stronger than you give them credit for.
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EVERYONE – there is an Article on HP about Reid and Angle.
Several blogs give opporuntity to slip in about the wild horse issues. I posited one, pretty weak – on my way out the door. But I’ll be selecting some Articles from here, TCF and Youtube and going back – I saw several opportunities.
Please join me there before this gets to be old news – about 2 or 3 days max –
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/harry-reid-sharron-angle_n_669570.html?page=6&show_comment_id=55994366#comment_55994366
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Since we have no way to refutiate this one, I guess I’ll be happy that the foul and mare were put out rather than a slower death. Someone in the right place at the right time.
We do need to stick to facts, sometimes (gag) even if they come from BLM when we have no way to challenge them.
We must hold ourselves to the same bar we want of BLM – sometimes that is not pleasant – but ok, we have plenty anyway that we do have proof of, or at least adequate benefit of doubt – which ironicaly much comes from BLM themsleves.
Having said that – coincidence? They “say” not gather related – so those horses could not have been there since yesterday – could not have been injured from running from the sound of helicopters the day before? Or driven into perilouse landscape while attempting to stay out of the traps that Laura found evidence of? Enough doubt?
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I was just mulling these same thoughts over in my mind Roxy. I’d like to see us gather what is actual proof, altho I know that ‘s pretty hard to do given the shut out by blm. Does anyone have any photos of any of the areas that appear to be temp corrals? I think that would be important esp if there are horse hoofprints that are concentrated and only go up to what is an unnatural barrier. Still would like to have had the chance to talk to those campers. But we have to be careful how we put 2 and 2 together as if blm should have any actual proof that we put it together wrong we could have egg on our face.
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Morgan and Roxy, You do realise, there is a legal case pending on this, there IS a mountain of evidence that cannot be discussed here at this time, There are many photos that cannot be released..This article was meant to do just what you are doing..intimidate and doubt…do i need to say more?????
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Sandra– I agree. There have been questions that I’ve asked here that have not been answered. I know the reason for that lies in the fact that some things, at this time, simply can’t be discussed. I respect that.
So, I’m exercising patience and placing my faith in Laura, Elyse, Katie, you and so many others who are dealing directly with attorneys and the courts.
I carry all of you in my heart every day, and I say prayers for your safety and for continued courage.
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We are supposed to stop asking questions until the suit is done?
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No Rox, keep the pressure on the BLM, to release the truth..How many horses died on the Oyhee..they are not going to give us the facts on any of this..once you start a cover up you have to continue to do so..it is our mission to find the truth, and it is not in BLMs pocket..They have made a decision to cover and lie for their contractor..The die is cast. hang in there!
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roxy, and you’d believe these blm “facts”? WHy? just curious. I believe NOTHING that they say, and I believe even less of what cattoors have to say. They can’t even keep their stories straight among themselves!
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Where did I say I believed them?
I said I have no way to refute them. And that is just today – who knows what tomorrow brings.
Regardless of how the horses got injured “IF” they needed to be put down it was good that occured.
Injured horese die in the wild all the time – but two things: 1) I do not believe these were hurt “naturally” but I have nothing today to prove that 2) I would hope any human, including Cattoor, that found any wild animal that was injured beyond survivabiilty would if able put them down themselves if legal to do so or find the authorities to take care of it. Mabye this is even wrong according to purists – leave nature alone entirely? I’d be ok with that if that is a real ecological benefit..
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Well, Roxy, you said we need to stick to facts, even if they’re BLM facts, sounds like believin’ to me,
in regards to the picture, this horse would’ve been laying out in the wild for 13 days?? I wouldn’t think there would be much left of the carcass, what w/ flies, ants, and scavengers, I was on vacation for a week, caught some mice in the barn in traps, by the time I got back, they were pretty unrecognizable as mice.
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Whatever
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Right back atcha roxy!
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Too much coincidence for me, these horses, in familiar range, just decided to run over cliffs????? I don’t buy it, sorry BLM, i still don’t believe ANYTHING you say,
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And if the horses did go into the cliff areas it shows that the blm has indeed stolen the range knowledge from the range-wise elder horses, the ones that know where there is water no matter what time of year, the ones that know their way around the fences and where is forage. This is what we have been telling them they have stolen–the survival knowledge of the herd not to mention the genes. They did an experiment with rats in a maze–once one generation of rats knew the way to the cheese they found that the next generation would go right to the cheese bypassing the dead ends and empty chambers–knowledge becomes inbred.
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You gals are right on..remember these releases have been coincided, to try to intimidate us into silence..we are getting way to close for their comfort..that means we are getting closer to the truth…and that truth is uglier than you can imagine…freedom of speech- use it- freedom of the press-use it!
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I’m only speaking for myself (but believe it whole-heartedly of others on this page) that my fear/intimidation quotient where the BLM is concerned is about
here.
But I have to admit – I think it’s Kewpie Doll Cute that the Bureau’s little spies use Advocate articles and the Comments Section to help them do their jobs.
Now they’re all butt-hurt that Advocates are campaigning against them, judging them in ‘the court of Public Opinion’. Well, Hell; what did they expect?
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jan, I am with you. Question it all and do not assume anything is true coming from all these practiced liars. mar
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“Two additional wild horses (a mare and foal) that were not being gathered were also found on the range during reconnaissance activities and were humanely euthanized because of life-threatening injuries. The contractor found the two animals while rescuing a group of approximately 28 wild horses stranded on a steep cliff as he guided the horses down the steep mountain.”
How do you “humanely euthanize” any animal with a rifle shot from a helicopter? And as for “guided”, that must have been a horror show. How do you “guide” horses with a helicopter they’re already terrified of? If the horses hadn’t been chased, how did they end up “stranded” on the cliff in the first place?
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Linda, How else would you euthanize wild animals on the range?
Back to Cattoor and BLM – Come on BLM, these horses have navigated these cliffs almost as good as mountain goats for centuries. And “stranded”, yes, like a cat up a tree – ever spent hours trying to “save” a whinning cat that is up a tree? And then, just when yo turn your back they happily scamper down by themselves!
But in this case they were injured (according to BLM – and someone should go and try to see if they really do have injuries as BLM reports). No doubt in my mind the two horses were injured because of the helicopter – both of them injured at the same time – again, just too many unbeleavable coincidneces!
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Roxy, I get your point. I was thinking about the ethical and moral obligations taught in hunter education classes – that a hunter is supposed to make sure the prey is truly dead and not suffering. I should think this would be even more important when claiming “humane euthanasia”. No mention that they landed the helicopter to confirm clean kills.
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someone has
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Ask yourself a question, Catoor claims to have shot these horses on the 11th, bodies were photographed on the 24th….notice anything …unusual about that in the photo
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The body fluids have been draining and settling. There may be open wounds under the horse. This is also a place where there is much heat and so the body os also drying out in the sun on the rocks that warm up in the sun. …..mar
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Why isn’t that body extremely swollen up if it was sitting out there in the heat for 13 days? I’ve seen bodies sitting for a week in the heat, they are huge, unless they’ve been gutted/opened to drain. Time for forensic work….
What were they doing out driving horses down a river/up cliffs on the 11th, the date AFTER the first day when they had all those deaths in the pens due to heat exhaustion/water intoxication?
They said as soon as those deaths occurred ON THE 10th they were focused on saving those first animals rounded up, hauling water to them, calling off the roundup, reassessing, yet now the Cattoors say they were out the very next day, hazing horses in an area that is obviously not safe by any means for a “stampede”?
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By all means, as I recall from sues website those folks were all on overload trying to save horses in pens and out on the desert, they called out their crew from murders creek with more pens…horses were being sorted right there and shipped out to utah to the prison…how IS it they had time to have 2 people gone and ranger rick for most of the 11th? no mention of it as the described the rest of their ‘rescue and recovery efforts..none what so ever..and you know how they love to brag they ‘rescued” the horses after their actions put them in peril..
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j3KneW2-RKLUyhSWI21IixzPpWJAD9HCRCKG0
BLM: 34 horses dead in roundup in northeast Nevada
(AP) – 26 minutes ago
“Worley says two more wild horses – a mare and a foal – were put down after they were found injured by a contractor herding about 28 wild horses away from a steep cliff.”
————————
Who wrote this press release, R.T.?
The minute I finished reading the release here, this article from AP shows up.
This was being posted at the same time the AP article shows up. Each and every lie only adds to everything we need to send to Congress.
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Sue Cattoor said in her interview that her husband and the pilot found the horses. No mention of a “BLM Nevada Chief Ranger” like the BLM is now claiming. It’s awfully suspicious that while we’re commenting on how and why Dave Cattoor would have the authority to shoot that injured horse with a rifle from a helicopter, that all of a sudden a BLM person of alleged authority somehow winds up in the picture. What’s the real story? I don’t believe either version.
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Excellent point!
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Yep thats right..I have read every rendition of this that sue has put out..no mention of any official with them…she did however say that they flew back to the gather site and talked to the BLM about it and went back later and shot the mare and foal..So now we have the BLM telling a lie on their website to try and cover the catoors liability for shooting the horses saying ranger rick went with them…wonder which ranger drew the short straw and is going to take the fall for this..LOL
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did anyone see the helicopter they were using? was it a two-seater or more? if only 2 seater with 3 large men I would like to know how Dave got off that accurate rifle shot from a vehicle that never hold completely still.
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keep thinking like that Morgan then go back and look at the picture taken on the 24th????
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I have never seen photos of any craft from any roundup that was larger than 2 seats. How do you OVERLOAD – illegally, I might add – a helicopter, stuffing 20 lbs in a 10 lb sack and then expect people to 1.) believe you did that (law abiding govt agency and squeaky clean contractor that you all are) and 2.) that anyone stuffed in like that could accurately aim and shoot out the door? Where do all the shoulders and elbows go with 3 people stuffed in there? Anyone have access to look up Cattoors FAA registrations for all their aircraft?
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Sandra, I don’t see dates on the pictures. But in addressing someone else here – that horse down from the cliff looks pretty darn bloated to me – that hind leg looks stuck out stiff in the air.
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Roxy, an animal starts to bloat right away, especially in the heat, the muscles go ridgid..decomposition of the body in the heat, 13 days and no sign????
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So perhaps the first photo was taken later than the 11th since it is still bloated? Am I even reading the bloat correclty? I’m only going by that hind leg sticking out kind of up like a toothpick in an orange to mean the body is bloated – and the shadow.
The second one was taken on the 25th by Katie for sure.
What would be the purpose of Cattoor misidentifying the date? I’m tired though, can’t even go there, I”ll look forward to those conjectures in tomorrows e-mail.
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I’m a little rested so back at it:
So –
Or, if the first picture was taken on the 11th BLM took their sweet time going back and euthanizing it? Or, BLM did not euthanize it at all, they just left it there do die? then realizing how bad that was, are now trying to cover their tracks?
I still think I am missing something – I sure don’t konw anythiing about dieing animals left on the range – and thats ok – I’ll wait for “official” releases after the suit – then I am sure Laura and Elyse will give us the the whole story – dang it’s had though.
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Wild horse hunting excursions.
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what was cartoor doing out there in a helicopter on that date then?
running wild horses without the BLM permission or authority? He doesn’t fly around there shooting horses for free does he?
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I highly doubt it was Dave Cattoor shooting…
This is such a no-brainers, folks.
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“Worley says two more wild horses – a mare and a foal – were put down after they were found injured by a contractor herding about 28 wild horses away from a steep cliff.”
OK, I see worleys statement answers my question.
The contractor helicopter was out there on July 10 or 11th HERDING WILD HORSES BY A STEEP CLIFF.??
man those poor wild horses get run around for weeks before official round-up date posted by BLM. what the heck is going on? so where are pictures from july 10th or 11th so we can see the colors and real counting and see whats missing from the final day.
BLM you are in charge of those contractors aren’t you? Everything they do IS your responsability!
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were the’ campers’ trapping horses? sign of pens, reported. that? The mrs was so quick to say the sign of pens was just the campsite remains. I learned to leave a campsite the way I found it or better. why would anyone leave a campsite that looked like a horsepen was there. Something to ponder. They got extra pens there pretty fast and ‘more hands for the emergency’. Vet report said the path to river was blocked. so how did horses get down there. what was that heavy rutted road down there. a gps for that loc would be good to know.
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Ms. Deb, this one’s for you!
From WikiAnswers:
”Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive” – Sir Walter Scott
Question: “What does it mean?”
Answer:
“Deception is a false reality imposed on a true reality. It is a fragile and complex weaving of truth, half truths’, lies and lies of omission. To successfully deceive another or several people, one must be skilled in the art of deception. To create a deception worthy of belief one must be able to create plausible details that help create the illusion of truth. It is the details that people listen to and remember and the one deceiving is obligated to remember these details in order to avoid having the lie exposed. The problem with remembering the lies we tell is that all people are basically good and we tend to forget the bad things we’ve done. In order to successfully perpetuate deception, the liar must be willing to live that lie when necessary. This becomes the tangled web we weave, especially when first we practice to deceive.”
_________________
Origin & an Opinion (same source) –
“It’s from Sir Walter Scott’s long poem, ‘Marmion’. I think that the above explanations are very interesting, but would add that a web is what is woven by a spider, and its function is to trap flies with its stickiness; the more they wriggle to get away, the more they entangle themselves in it. Scott is warning us that the liar spins and weaves his own trap for himself, not realising he has done so until he’s caught in it. Oo, nasty!”
So who’s the spider and who’s the fly? Just askin’.
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My head hurts just thinking about the poor judge who may one day end up hearing all of this “he said/she said” nonsense.
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If we can read between the lines, please:
From: http://horsebackmagazine.com/hb/archives/1933 –
“Like many in the West steeped in a ranching tradition, Sue Cattoor believes the wild horse are livestock, not wild animals. That tradition views livestock as a commodity, nothing more. Something to be bought and sold. Ranchers have a very pronounced vision of how animals should be viewed, and Cattoor is no different.
“If they are wildlife, then why don’t they issue a license for them to be hunted?” she asks.”
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Exactly. Anyone can read the fervor and relish Dave Cattoor has for hunting down wild horses. He plead guilty to illegally hunting them in the past, sending them to slaughter, that’s a public record. And his words are right on their website, I believe, or in a published past interview. He says it’s a thrill and he can’t imagine doing anything else for his living, the horses are in his blood, compel him ……. apparently to hunt them down and shoot them. Not enough were dying of heat stroke/water intoxication in the pens from the Cattoor stampede of the prior day(Saturday), so Dave had to go out hunting for some more the next day (Sunday).
I would like to know where are the other 28 they claim were near these 2 which were killed? What happened to them? The first day’s “gather” was stopped and not restarted for 5 days (Thursday), so where did they “guide” them to for the period of time between Sunday the 11th and Thursday the 15th? There were no fresh horses gathered during those 5 days, so where were they during that time after Dave and his pilot “guided them from off the cliffs on the 11th? Perhaps being held in outlying pens where water was withheld to prove the crisis BLM claimed?
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BLM’s own press release states that the mare and foal shot on the rocks were discovered during reconnaissance activities. In the same paragraph it then states that they were discovered while rescuing a group of 28 horses stranded on a steep cliff-“guiding” the horses down the steep mountain. Which was it? Also Sue Catoor on her web site admits all but 2 made it off the cliffs to the river. They didn’t make it because they shot them.
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How did they guide the horses off the steep cliffs? With terrifying helicopters? I sure hope not.
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KEEP asking questions about what you are being told is all I can say…It is not -at all -what it appears to be..it is darker and uglier than any speculation we have done yet…
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RT. Get a life!!
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RT. Get a life!!this blog only post responses from the bleeding hearts. What a crock of BS. Just like our Negro President.
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It’s too bad that the wise older horses who knew the safe routes to water at the bottom of the canyon and back up were standing in holding pens several miles away! Two horses died by trying to get to water without their leaders.
These horses have well established societies, and tearing herds apart destroys those societies.
What the BLM is doing is unspeakably horrid!!!
They must be stopped!! Enough said.
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Maybe that is one of their techniques.
Remove the “difficult” horses that know the “escape routes” or are more likely to lead an escape.
Then drive the less certain without the hassle of the “difficult” horses.
I have read that in the past there was an incident where “difficult” horses were shot from the air as they repeatedly led the followers away from the traps at the last minute.They were then simply shot. They HAD BEEN ROUNDED UP SO MANY TIMES THEY KNEW THE DRILL AND THEY KNEW HOW TO AVOID CAPTURE BETTER.
This may be a reason the BLM doesn’t want to let them back on the ranges. . .the captured ones. . .because they are older and wiser. Make their job more difficult. They would have to (the contractors) accept fewer jobs in a season because they would have to chase all those “difficult” horses — this way, they “win” without even trying!
Is this the coward’s way?
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This is the Coward’s way. I have heard this also. And the time a group of horses hid in a stand of trees for the same reason- they knew to hide from the helicopter. Cattoor came and shot them where they hid. It is monumental arrogance and hate and the efficiency of killers who have killed for decades, likely, thousands of our wild horses and burros. As this has progressed from the first week at Owyhee, it has built and grown into the ugliest work they may have done. It cannot be allowed to be forgotten or swept away by their lies. They have done these deadly deeds long enough and we are watching so it will stop and the entire program will stop if needs be. There is no other way for this to end. Got that BLM/Cattoors? mar
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maybe this is the reason claimed the mare could not see..she would not go where they were trying to send her, if she was a band leader the others would follow her..so they just pushed her off the cliff with the helicopter..when she didn’t die from that they came back and shot her and her foal with the broken legs..if it was her foal..it was sone of the younger members of the herd that followed her or tried..bless its heart, which i shall name” follow me”..
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We need a name for our courageous palamino mare to go with” follow me”…her name is not- 2 dead- she is a part of the history of this massacre and rotten coverup, dead horses must be named for the role they had to play not numbered not “things”..We will always remember them and honor them even if the BLM or Catoors did not
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I was thinking that last ngiht – we should name them both – we have little “follow me” or is that the mare? What shall we name the other?
In any event we need to make them poster children so that they did not die in vain, regardless of the reasons.
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BLM stands for brutal lying murderers and they are lying and covering up .
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We would never have known- at least until the court case- about these deaths..Neither Catoors nor the BLM had EVER mentioned it..and yet it involved a whole days activity, numerous consults with campers and rescue missions and back and forth..not a word mentioned…So because of Maureens article..it was brought to light..it has been discussed and we have heard several different versions of it..and the BLM and catoors are not happy about that…but if it was all so above board..why did we hear no mention before???? Keep asking the Why questions
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So, as was said in “101 Dalmations”, “Mum’s the word and quick’s the action.”
There are so many tasks suggested on this post alone, never mind the myriad of others. So if you think something needs doing, don’t wish or hope someone else will step up. JUST DO IT!!! Then report your findings privately. There’s bound to be some overlap and duplication, but better that than something important left undone.
And if you think you’ve got info that’s really gangbusters, snail mail may be the way to go. Email accounts are hacked all the time. Just check how many programs are available to monitor your kids.
It’s interesting and stimulating to chat and blow off steam on the blogs, but what does it truly accomplish? I’ve already picked out a couple of things from this post I’m going to pursue. Catch you on the flip side.
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I get hours of amusement fro seeing BLMers chase geese around the desert!
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Oh, by the way, there was first hand knowledge-those campers saw this whole thing come down..they could see the horses and verify everything catoors said, so could we interview them? Got someone on that right now…
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“BLM was not conducting operations to gather this horse or any excess wild horses within this area either prior to or at the time when these horses were found…”
Oh really? Then why does your roundup contractor state they were out “guiding” horses, apparently the band these 2 belonged to, down a river canyon (like the Grand Canyon!) near cliffs on Sunday, the 11th, the day AFTER all those horses (gathered the first day, the 10th) died from heat stroke/water intoxication in the BLM catch pens? Little mixed up on your dates, I’d say….
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That’s a lovely big hole in their story that you just walked through, Kathleen! mar
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Guiding horses? That sounds so gentle and humane. Just like gather.
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Thank you, RT, for an authentic news resource – you and so many others ARE mainstream media, certainly no one believes BLM’s websites or data. When the American majority wants to know about wild horse roundups, BLM’s website is the last place they look.
If Mrs. Cattoor is suffering any stress from this terrible negativity that has interrupted her humble and virtuous existence, perhaps there is help available for her here:
http://www.hare.org/
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Hmmm, the perfect information for our wayward gather crew. mar
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The BLM publishes conflicting reports; first stating the two horses were NOT counted because they weren’t part of the “gather,” and then changing their story in the media, adding them to the count. I am thankful much wiser forces are at work here and I support their efforts both in the field and our courts. The BLM’s behavior has turned purely defensive and that says a whole lot.
Laura Houston published a link on ABR (thank you, Laura) to the PEER White Report from ’97 regarding the BLM’s close call with indictment for sending horses to slaughter for profit. I read the report in its entirety and will never apologize for “thinking the worst” about the BLM’s motives and actions. For all we know, the same practices detailed in the White Paper happen to this day since the criminals were never brought to justice. At the end, the author states the BLM “grudgingly” runs the WH&B program. Since they read here, I just wanted them to know that’s a perfect description of the way our American mustangs are treated. And it makes little difference to me whether the horses were run off the cliff or “euthanized” after suffering injuries from the “gather” preparations. They died as a result of BLM/Cattoor interference. No apology from me, not now, not ever.
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yes, I agree with you lenore… mar
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In the second photo, above, the rock formations themselves look like falling horses!
Perhaps this cliff area should be named for this heinous crime committed here — Lost Horse Cliff.
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this whole experience has been like being dropped into a Bev Dolittle painting..trying to find the horses buried in the lies of the BLM and contractor- as opposed to the trees or snow-where they belong
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I would like to end the day by bringing to everyones attention that Sue has been making some wild accusations against people, mis quoting by a mile, accusing Katie of things i said, lol..and accusing katie of providing false and misleading testimony before the federal court..she in fact had her attorney send katie a letter to that effect, which is as I remember from law school- threatening a federal witness in an ongoing case-is a crime..what has our government agency come to when this kind of behavior is not only tolerated but encouraged..Do not allow yourselves to be lectured to by either the BLM or Catoors-there is no excuse for these two to violate, the freedom of speech, freedom of the press, or citizen rights..Americas mustangs are owned by the american citizens and held in trust for us..Never forget that..they are not BLMs Wild Horses nor are they Catoors wild horses!
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I assume this intimidation has been brought to the judges attention. This reminds me of any big investigation ever done–I remember Class Action, the one where the water caught on fire. Will the blm have to hold car washes to pay back all those they have harmed through their decades of abuse? Why have they themselves not sought to rid themselves of a program they never wanted in the first place? Instead they come up with the not so brilliant idea of rounding up all the horses and sticking them in just a few places after sterilizing them, problem solved let’s all go home. I hope the heads of blm are getting that “surrounded” feeling.
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Sandra, I think I am missig something, and it is impossible to read every blog, but who is allowing lecture from BM or Cattoor?:
“Do not allow yourselves to be lectured to by either the BLM or Catoors”
Who are your addressing this to and why?
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The BLM reps..the PR people..the ones who keeps lecturing us that we are misinformed because we can’t make their figures and actions match their statistics, that we question their motives, and that using our own thought process and common sense and knowledge is somehow supposed to make us “doubt” and become intimidated…i saw it happening right before my eyes…manipulation and the co-ordination of sues posts, BLMs posts and letter(s) sent out by her attorney..it was all co-ordinated behind the scenes-and thats a fact.
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Sorry, I am directing that to everyone who reads their material and starts to wonder if we do have evidence or are we tilting at windmills…Some things require faith..and this is one of them
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Sandra, thanks. I wasn’t sure
I am so strongly insulted by those Press Releases about our misinformation from the “misinformatoin” queens of of the “misinfomration” kings of BLM that everytime I see a new one I feel my face and neck actually getting hot (and sure it is red – though I don’t go and look).
Funny, I did not take it as intimidation, but more the acts of desparate guilty as hell people, probably should have.
But then I’m rarely intimidated if I think I am right – just plow through them and sho them aside! And on these issues I know we are right.
We are only left to our imagination though with BLM – left to our own devices and questions – that is not the same as misinformation.
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I lost track of mrs C when she said someone was, FLYING when your feet were in contact with the earth. Could just be Mrs. Cs style of writing. maybe shes better trying to do her explainations in public. how about a camera interview? a good sit down long interview on camera.
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I am beginng to think we should ask that the national gaurd should be sent in to protect the american citizens, disarm BLM employees and the catoors and their employees, given their erratic behavior and now threateniing a witness-I will be attending a gather and quite frankly..no longer will feel safe knowing they are armed and i am not..what if I were to fall off a cliff out there and be shot, how would anyone be able to prove who did it?? They are trying to use strong arm tactics and threats now to silence us-denying us our individual rights..do we really know where this will stop?
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please contact your elected officials and ask for protection.
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Does Nevada have state police that can be called in? I will make some calls and also see what ideas I can come up with. Wonder what Blackwater is doing these days?
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I am liking that Morgan! Sues ramblings are giving me cause for concern for her mental state, the idea that they are flying around out there-with guns in that helicopter and in their rigs..not such a good feeling. Someone, and I don’t care who it is..needs to address this…It seems from their website..that Catoors consider themselves an arm of the BLM..this we..thing they keep saying…sounds like they are considering themselves to be an enforcement division of the government instead of a helicopter contractor with only a monetary vested interest..I would like to see George Napp do something on this story
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I read an article recently about a sheriff in Nye County who believes his job (and the job of those who work under him) is in service to and dictated by The People. He holds the Constitution in religious regard. He has held lectures & classes for his deputies on how the Constitution is supposed to work for the People.
In his view, Federal is synonymous with the People; authority emmanates from the People.
He also said the oath of Public office, ANY Public office begins:
“I do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States… and defend it from enemies, both foreign & DOMESTIC.”
This is a fella who carried arrest warrants for agents of the BLM for Unlawful Orders, orders that fall outside of the Constitution & State Constitution.
If I weren’t already married to some other fella, I might make a mad dash for this one – SIGH.
It’s the 10th Amendment – which, in this instance, enjoins the Federal Government from superceding State Authority.
Local law enforcement has the power, the duty & the ability to refuse Unlawful Orders. They cannot be lead around or pressed into service by a Federal agency if the agency’s actions are unconstitutional.
Now, I just gotta believe there’s law enforcement out there somewhere, other than Nye County, who will uphold the law & their oath and protect the People.
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It’s really a shame that our Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio is not in a county where this nonsense is happening. He has a mixed reputation for his unyielding stance on illegal immigration and its associated crime. But the man is an animal welfare WARRIOR and I believe he would be exactly like the one you described, Lisa – undeterred and un-threatened, focused on upholding the law regardless of how “senior” the position of the accused criminals. Sadly, we have no wild horse HMAs here in Maricopa County that would be in his jurisdiction.
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Sandra, you have raised an excellent point. Perhaps we should start pressing for that. When someone in law enforcement has exibited questionable behavior, that person is required to relinquish his weapon and taken off duty.
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As far as lawyers and threats of intimidation go, Sandra simply reported what she SAW.
Katie has given a SWORN DECLARATION. Maureen reported FACTS. Laura has exercised her right and duty as a citizen of the UNITED STATES to insist that the law be followed.
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I’m trying to keep things in perspective.
This juggling act is exactly what we can and should expect from BLM and/or contractor’s attorneys and PR folks. Yes, it’s frustrating, but really it’s all part of the legal game. They will attempt to intimidate, to bully and to minimize the legitimacy of the opposition. It’s their job. I’m NOT excusing the behavior — sending a letter to Katie, for instance, telling her that she’s misleading the court and insisting that she stop. That was most aggressive and inappropriate. However, I will say that this tactic is well within the range of normal and probably shouldn’t ruffle our feathers too badly. Put it on file and show it to the judge as evidence that there is a real attempt to hinder and intimidate advocates.
What all of this official hot air blowing tells me is that advocates have done their homework, are asking the right questions, and are presenting factual information in a legally appropriate manner that will most likely have results that do not favor the government or the contractor.
I see this PR blitz as a positive sign. It means that Laura, et al are proceeding on the right course of action. And it’s touched a nerve.
Be safe, Laura and friends. Remember the buddy system. And keep up the good work!
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The fact that we have come to the point where we consider this and accept “this is part of the game” is exactly why it is part of the game..It should not be accepted that the legal system can be confused with a game…when the law is broken by the very agencys we “expect” to enforce the laws and make the laws, and uphold them..we became not a society of laws but of lawlessness…these things happen in small increments. During the bush administration we allowed our highest government officials to do this with Vaierie Plane, the CIA agent, exposed-as retribution for her husband speaking the truth, to discredit that truth..and was anyone ever punished?..I expected that kind of behavior to stop when we were rid of Bush/Cheney-instead it still permeates the culture of our government agencys and their contractors..I want the “anything goes” days gone.
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Citizens must feel they can go to the courts-seek and receive justice against a powerful enity, such as the government-with its vast and unlimited resources. If Citizens no longer feel they can receive justice there, they WILL take to the streets to get justice-as a last resort..We have to make our court system a non political and unbiased place of last resort for justice.
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Sandra, you are doing great things and hang in there – the days of Cheney Bush and the Bush Crime family will one day be behind us (if we work hard to not allow Jeb or his ilk into the White House) – they left a huge mess and it will take some time to correct course.
The letter from Cattoor has bully written all over it – just consider the source – be careful, use the buddy system for sure, report them, but don’t see them for anything other than the school yard ignoramouses they are. And remember where are those school yard bullies of the past are today compared to where the “students”, the “doers”, the “inquisative”, the “nerds” are today. The fact that she wrote that indicates to me that they are on the run.
Reminds me again, of M. Scott Pecks levels of growth – I’ll let you decide which one Cattoor fits into-
“The Four Stages of Spiritual Development
Peck postulates that there are four stages of human spiritual development [7][8]:
Stage I is chaotic, disordered, and reckless. Very young children are in Stage I. They tend to defy and disobey, and are unwilling to accept a will greater than their own. They are extremely egoistic and lack empathy for others. Many criminals are people who have never grown out of Stage I.
Stage II is the stage at which a person has blind faith in authority figures and sees the world as divided simply into good and evil, right and wrong, us and them. Once children learn to obey their parents and other authority figures, often out of fear or shame, they reach Stage II. …With blind faith comes humility and a willingness to obey and serve. The majority of good, law-abiding citizens never move out of Stage II.
Stage III is the stage of scientific skepticism and questioning. A Stage III person does not accept things on faith but only accepts them if convinced logically. Many people working in scientific and technological research are in Stage III. ….
Stage IV is the stage where an individual starts enjoying the mystery and beauty of nature and existence. While retaining skepticism, he starts perceiving grand patterns in nature and develops a deeper understanding of good and evil, forgiveness and mercy, compassion and love. …he does not accept things through blind faith or out of fear, but does so because of genuine belief, and he does not judge people harshly or seek to inflict punishment on them for their transgressions. This is the stage of loving others as yourself, losing your attachment to your ego, and forgiving your enemies. Stage IV people are labeled as Mystics.
Peck argues that while transitions from Stage I to Stage II are sharp, transitions from Stage III to Stage IV are gradual. Nonetheless, these changes are very noticeable and mark a significant difference in the personality of the individual….”
It is obvious to me that everyone here is clearly at least in Stage III, and we have many stage IV among us. I would like to report that I am in stage IV, except I cannot forgive BLM and Cattor and I wish only the harshest punishment for them – I am angry and proud of it.
Read this “evil” people part also, you will redilty recognize our foes:
“…Evil is described by Peck as “militant ignorance”. The original Judeo-Christian concept of “sin” is as a process that leads us to “miss the mark” and fall short of perfection[3]. Peck argues that while most people are conscious of this at least on some level, those that are evil actively and militantly refuse this consciousness. Peck considers those he calls evil to be attempting to escape and hide from their own conscience (through self deception) and views this as being quite distinct from the apparent absence of conscience evident in sociopathy[3].
According to Peck an evil person[2][3]:
Is consistently self deceiving, with the intent of avoiding guilt and maintaining a self image of perfection
Deceives others as a consequence of their own self deception
Projects his or her evils and sins onto very specific targets (scapegoats) while being apparently normal with everyone else (“their insensitivity toward him was selective” (Peck, 1983/1988[3], p105))
Commonly hates with the pretense of love, for the purposes of self deception as much as deception of others
Abuses political (emotional) power (“the imposition of one’s will upon others by overt or covert coercion” (Peck, 1978/1992[2], p298))
Maintains a high level of respectability and lies incessantly in order to do so
Is consistent in his or her sins. Evil persons are characterized not so much by the magnitude of their sins, but by their consistency (of destructiveness)
Is unable to think from the viewpoint of their victim (scapegoat)
Has a covert intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury
Most evil people realize the evil deep within themselves but are unable to tolerate the pain of introspection or admit to themselves that they are evil. Thus, they constantly run away from their evil by putting themselves in a position of moral superiority and putting the focus of evil on others. Evil is an extreme form of what Scott Peck, in The Road Less Traveled, calls a character disorder…”
I left in footnotes, and there is much more to read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck
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Rox, hit the nail on the head..will have to read more of his work..but seeing it first hand every day..I too cannot reach the mystic level…to much anger in me at the momment..a good sign..its not for myself..but for the wild ones! I am redeemable..lol
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HARRY REID AND OUR LOCAL government is making me sick. Moved to Gardnerville, Nevada in 2002. Had beautiful wild horses on our property of 4 acres. NOW, the roundups have ruined what I moved here for, the last of the Open Range policy which is just another State LIE.
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adel, l I hope you are flooding your local Chamber of Commerce, Board of Realtor, Economic Development and Tuorism boards with this information.
I was going to move to Newvada for retiemrent, you may add me to your comments, as I not only will not be moving there, but I will not even travel through that State except for possible extraordinary reasons – and then I will bring all my own food and fill up on gas at the border.
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Yikes, I am back to mega typos, apologies to all!
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Rox, I agree, I was going to look for a ranch in Nevada as well-love the nevada desert, but decided to look over the border on the Ca side..pretty country there as well..do not like the politics of nevada, and have a horse ranch that I do not want exposed to morons jackles and murderers
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I just don’t understand why anyone interested in equine welfare would bother commenting on this tripe. I appreciate that RT/SFTHH posts the other side of the issue, but picking it apart is just a waste of time.
It should be collected, dissected, archived with factual counterpoints and turned over to advocate activities that are litigating and lobbying quietly. Individuals should make contact with the same to volunteer deed/title searches and learn how to navigate through the BLM/USGS mapping info system (gave me a headache) to do overlays for litigation. I understand that this is difficult to do and we are all very angry, sad and frustrated.
Don’t misunderstand me, I’m all for discussion….but we are dicussing government fairy tale speak. It is only good for showing how incorrect they are. The press is not going to feature this story/stories and the public is sadly distracted. It’s only going to be through Congress (don’t hold your breath) and the courts that the equines get relief. Time is not on the equines side…the massacre schedule escalation is testimony and evidence to that point.
We have to trust and vigorously donate to “grassroots” and expect the best that humans can do in horrible circumstances.
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I did post this just to demonstrate the absurdity of the other side and how things just do not add up. This was straight off from their website, unaltered and in it’s full glory.
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Thank you RT. I understand you are keeping us informed, no matter how stupid the other side can be and it is important to do the reveals. It is critical.
I just don’t understand why people who care about this issue bother to take the time to post other than a thank you to you or a new plan. I don’t feel anyone did anything wrong.
It is VERY important that this gets posted (BLMSpeak or Killtoor Crazytalk), but arguing on line with these crazies is like spitting or tinkling into the western plains wind. We all know the BIG truth and many of us feel it is important to discuss the stupid tripe they put out. I HATE going to their site!
You are just about my sole-source on anything important re:equines (domestic or wild). The advocates have come a long way and that is good.
I’m not against comments. I’m just concerned we tend to waste too much angst that we would better serve with donation, admin support, etc.
Unlike DOI/USDA, I have no problem with differing opinions, transparency or truth.
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Denise, I do not consider exposing the truth to be “tripe,” as you coined it. What IS tripe, in my opinion, is to expect any lawmakers in this country to hear the American public. They have not, and they will not.
Hard-earned money and valuable time will be wasted on legislation. Better spent is the money donated to buy the survivors out of the auctions and feedlots. Sometimes you have to suck it up and pay the Devil.
The wild horses need to be rescued from the government and their partners in crime, in my opinion. Let’s get them the Hell off of public lands. That’s where I think money is well spent.
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Debbie…My point is that about 98% of what BLM puts out is tripe; that what we discuss here because of the pooh they put out, does not make our comments tripe; just that it needs to be directed in constructive means like evidence and more collection of data that usually is better served by not discussing on a public forum.
I appreciate that is difficult to do.
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That tripe is what is allowig them to remove the horses and get away with it..it has to be completely exposed piece by piece for what it is..calling it tripe and proving it are 2 different things
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Debbie, you say “Lets get the horses OFF public lands” – I don’t think that will be very popular here.
I think you may see that as removing them from the hands of the cruel BLM, and I don’t know where you are in your journey of knowledge on this subject. Giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Denise “just that it needs to be directed in constructive means like evidence and more collection of data that usually is better served by not discussing on a public forum”.
See, and maybe I’m taking this wrong, but this makes me wary of posting because – so what is that “better served by NOT discussing” since I don’t know what THAT is – how do I know what I am asking or thinking is not part of some evidence or something that is behind the scences?
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Change requires more than one route.while I agree with Lobbying completely and litigation..first it has to be backed in the court of public opinion, case in point..these deaths and this coverup added to the fiasco of the Calicos served to get those lawmakers to issue and sign that statement..Public pressure requires the public be informed, and while it might seem pointless, most of us are persuing this on ALL frounts..in the field, getting proof, in the courts, with our lawmakers and on the blogs and our circle of friends and family diseminating information that is NOT getting to the public at large..Our ability to sucessfully lobby is somewhat limited by the fact that there is no monetary value or special interst we are serving, doing what is morally right-is a hard sell these days..stories like these serve to educate the public for the need to step up and do something more..
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I understand your points, but respectfully disagree. There is a significant link between the treatment of the wild equines and our public lands policy, enforcement and the extraction of natural resources that directly effect our nation’s assets and therefore, the public. I’m saying you are not going to get their attention and anger in time to stop the massacres.
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And don’t forget the very strong anti-wild horse Nevada Department of Wildlife – read this:
http://www.ndow.org/wild/concerns/horses/index.shtm
check the links at the end of that article, above.
Plus — this website also has an amazing array of maps.
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(Maps for hunters)
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maps for hunters – a plethora thereof:
http://ndow.org/hunt/maps/index.shtm
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Having just come off of months of research into the Ruby pipeline and other energy projects and an insider on green energy projects..I am well aware and informed..but also well aware the public at large..is not informed- of the background issues..without getting that information to the ‘general public-we do not have the pressure to stop it..That is my point..to stop any of this..we need a large public pressure..and that requires informing the rest of country what is going on and by whom and for what purpose-Please do not underestimate the value of this..we have little MSM interest in pursuing this..Our internet News, info sharing and blogs is what we have to do this. with.
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excellent hunters maps!! and the outfitters that take people on those big river camping trips…they have more maps and info then the BLM too.
also vids of wild horses in the area they raft on..I got one youtube vid recent that shows horses on a river trip, let me find it.. here it is look how exciting it was for these rafters to SEE wild horses. And look how calm the horses are and quiet not harming a thing. look how nice the banks are too unlike with cattle 🙂
If we can get the fishermen to be outraged the round-ups muck up the water. If we can get the humters angry the round-ups are killing their trophey animals. wildlife groups the dust, panicing herds and sage brush crushing trucks are ruining the land. They may help get rid of the horse killers too.
more pictures please. That ONE last picture of the dead horse sure generated a lot of public info and discussion. Can we match ANY of those rodeo horses with a wild horse from the range? some have VERY distintive markings. Or maybe we can find one close, I thought one of those horse black in wild horse race 😦 looked a LOT like Freedom 😦
how about the dead horses the blm buried, are we allowed to dig them up and have/pay independent forensic Vets check them?
can we have that group of crushed sagebrush pics released please? or corrals on waterway. more visuals of dust covered crushed plants, running wildlife, (other than horses) for these hunters, fishermen, bird lovers, plant lovers.
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Yes, there are people out there:
Maybe signs saying:
REWARD
For any information that leads to the arrest and conviction of xyz. . .
Post all over.
Drop leaflets from planes –
Post on all websites!
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We must get more of the publc on board. This issues are not a “win teh war and all will be fine”..
Whatever happens, even legislative changes completly in the favor of the wid horses -gut BLM’s program and start a new one – still CONTINUAL watching into the future is key.
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Larua that Salt River Rafter video is pricless! See, that is an Arizona horse saying to itself – “silly river rafter yahoos!”
Loved it!
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Lesperance of Nevada Ag is, well (not fit for internet consumption)….they have been working with DOI/USDA to exterminate these American Icons for decades.
They play the roaming outside of HMAs, lah-duh-dah-duh garbage. They are not subject to the same rules as DOI/USDA. Slimey creeps.
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I also see this issue as highly symbolic of the not-so-secret intention of corporate-owned America to control the water supply, thereby controlling the food supply – not just for the wild horses, but for us as well.
If people are not wild horse advocates now, they will soon regret it when suddenly they find themselves without water and food!
Everything is connected.
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Debbie – you are so correct! Everything is connected.
Best Documentary – The Corporation. The cover has the silhouete of a man in a suit with devil ears and devil tail – A MUST SEE!
And anything Naomi Watts.
But also in the Corporation the CEO of FLOR Carpet – one of the real good guys and I predict a new generation of buisness people – an environmentalist, a member of the human race, getting back to Goldwater Republican before it was completly taken over by scallywag power mongers and carpetbagger war mongers. I’m not saying he is Republican or Democrate, I do not know that – but just watch and decide yourself – he seems pretty darn “left” to me.
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Ok I am losing it – NOT Naomi Watts – I meant Naomi Klein. I won’t disagree that she is heavy handed, but since her criticism of Milton Freidman that resulted in criticism calling her analysis flawed – however now both CATO and the Chicago School of economics are back peddling and attempting to side step and/or downplay their previous support of Freidman, since now his supply side and trickle down has left the world economy in shambles – turns out she was pretty much right on target!.
And this will be our history too – let Cattoor and BLM can criticize us all they want for our criticisms – in the end the truth will be known. If we have made some little mistakes so be it, that will not bring us down.
About Naomi: Naomi Klein The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism
“Among negative reviews, in a report for Cato Institute, Johan Norberg argued that Klein’s analysis is flawed on virtually every level and her historical examples do not survive scrutiny…Tom Redburn, in The New York Times wrote “she essentially accuses Friedman of being the godfather of a Mafia-like gang … There’s a measure of truth about the dark side of globalization … but [corporatism] is a lot to lay on poor Milton.”
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I would further argue that Friedman Corporatism was a lot to lay on the world!
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answer myself too. I don’t know how to do a FOIA or what exactly to ask for. I want to know the disposal method of dead wild horses. I read the last round-up they” buried by corrals”.
There has to be a record (to FOIA) of how many they ‘buried on public lands”??
Is there a way to FOIA how many wild horses go to the local render facilities? There was a report of many more dead wild horses going to renderman than BLM admitted too.
Can we FOIA the render reports/sales/payments???
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Seems like “savethe wildhorses was working on a list of FOI questions back a few blogs. She apparently is very familiar with the process..I also think I remember TCF may have something that can help you in how to do the process
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There is alot of evidence and alot of photos sitting in a evidence file on this court case-that cannot be released yet..You will be horrified, and Is why some of us seem to be overly angry.
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also, very much like your ideas above..this is a means to stop them from impementing the EAs on the roundups, WWP uses the endangered lahotan trout to win many of their cases against the BLM cattle allotments..we should be challenging their findings of no impact in court with just this sort of evidence…chasing horses down the riverbed and setting up corrals there -a prime example
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here is a NEW BLM video on a holding facilty. Fallon-
Indian Lakes Road Short-Term Holding Facility
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God, half these horses look lame to me.
Sortin’ em like cattle. Arriving already “sorted by age class.”
Good vet care?
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Poor babies one and all!
I see not shade or other protection from the elements.
Only places to lay down are dovered in poop.
And those examples of the horses in the chutes – We already saw Laura’s video of processing – what a contrast to this! BLM had to find the most submissive ones out there or exhausted them with loud noise all night perhaps, or sprayed something in the air to dope them – which would explain the lazy and uncaring nature of those guys doing the processing – I mean someone should have told them to look just a little interested in their jobs and charges you would think? (Or, maybe they really do hate what they are doing and wish the horses were free?)
So many looked depressed. No roaming to find food. I’d like The Dog Whisperer Ceasar to chime in on this. He contends that because dogs are hunters for food that they must be walked before each meal to be healthy as that somewhat mimics their natural patterns.
Antway – none of this looks good – but will look ok to casual unknowing viewers. Wish we could require a link to the PBS Coiud series on the BLM website and Youtubes. I did not check this one – all I have seen never provide ability to post.
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OK so they can put 100 horses in 70000 sq feet that equates to 26.45 square feet for each horse-now if this was a stall that would be minimal if you ask me altho I know stalls can come smaller than that (boo hoo). This is wild horses that are used to space and only being close to their family bands, danger is associated with mixing with horses not of your band until there has been a chance to check out the interlopers–here they are forced into same sex bands of previously unknown horses and this is being offered in this video as an example of how accommodating they are. Bulls***. Also noteworthy is how they note that each horse is given the freezebrand and this is recorded along with the description of each horse so they can track that horse for life. Then why are they so loathe to turn over these records that they show documented into a nice little list? A**hats!!!!!!!!! And Rox you are right, there was some plywood up around the perimeters but unless they are going out with umbrellas there is NO protection at all from the hot sun, cold rain or any weather at all. Man I am po’d. Any person with an ounce of common sense (and as I have previously stated I don’t and never have owned a horse so if its obvious to me its really obvious) could see that this is a lame a** attempt to influence really stinking stupid ignoramuses into believing that the horses are being maintained in a manner consistent with humane principles. Not to mention the filth, and they didn’t either come to think of it–they need to buy a dang shovel.
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I just posted comments on two of these videos… something I am loathe to do… log into youtube. The two videos I’ve watched so far had no comments — this seems like an easy target to me. I mean, sure they can delete comments as fast as we can post them… but you never know who might see something and start doing their own research.
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This fight for our wild horses will not end until we win. We are here for the whole 9 yards. We are winners, folks. mar
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Okay (again)…newsflash….so called “hunters” maps are nothing more than reprinted USGS Maps (usually topo and they are BEAUTIFUL, seriously) with notations provided by state/county agencies and hunting groups to make that special whack ’em experience a bit less difficult. Crap! Check out the fishing system maps…they do everything for you save for put your hook/fly in the freakin’ water…gee, ain’t that being a macho sportsman?!?!
The difference is tracking the state v. county v. fed layering and reference systems off the various grid systems that are based on USGS and/state grid systems.
Correction of above deeply appreciated….seriously.
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LOL, good description..when someone finds those maps who is more capable than I..let me know..I need them..
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I’ve been in the military for a verrry looong time. When I was in the field, we used USGS maps (again, they are fantastic) and if we were still on a military reservation they were somewhat modified but still based on the USGS maps. I actually used them on my honeymoon as we traveled by rail to the Four Corners and tried to go fishing (most of the streams were dead because of mining-after 70 years still) on the Gunnison, etc.
The key is to understand how USDA/DOI and the counties integrate and/or overlay on themselves….ain’t rocket science, but I will admit with NLIS/GeoCommunicator you might need a undergraduate degree in government stupidity (it’s complicated).
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Guess I should stick to my burro compass and a homing pidgeon..at least i won’t run out of gas in the desert that way.
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I’ve spent some time on Geocommunicator. Lots of trial and error. Lots of notes in the PILE of stuff beside my computer. I finally developed a step-by-step process of getting from the main map to where I wanted to be. It has to be done in a specific order, but you can back step if you get disoriented. Also lots of linked info once you understand how to access it.
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The USGS maps are spectacular works of engineering, science and map making (good tax dollars at work)….what the layers of BS the DOI and USDA overlay on them are a different matter.
But you are correct, trust the equine and unless you lead it over a cliff you’ll find water and forage in time, barring further human interference. After all, the equines have been doing it for centuries withour BLMs help. 5 million at the turn of the 20th century and down to 60k in a combination of holding and running free (and even those numbers are open to serious scientific debate) 2000s. I don’t believe they ever really left North America.
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The preffered belief from ‘flat earthers’ ( anti-Mustang proponents) is that the early equus that became extinct in North America either starved, were killed off by climate change or were decimated by early Man.
Very few mention all the other creatures that died off at the same time – Giant Camels, Flat-Faced Bear, Giant Bison, Giant Elk & Mastadons & Mammoths.
So what?
Mustang & Wild Burros have been alive and well for 5 centuries, filling the niche they once occupied and living harmoniously with wild life. We all know range wasn’t decimated until the advent of the European cow. And it’s one of the most ridiculous concepts around – that there will be more forage & better environments for Native Wildlife by keeping ‘feral horse’ populations under control.
Problem is – every roundup, every removal re-creates the exact same biological stressors that encourage non-selective breeding among Wild Equines – only with a narrower genetic base.
So, Spies, with yer little eyes – stick that in your Environmental Assessment and smoke it.
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Excuuuse me…that should have read approximately 2 million at the turn of the 20th Century and 5 million in the 18th Century (estimated of course because back then, they didn’t do scientific census’ [punctuation/sp?] and ironically, in the 21st to 22d Century we still don’t use science for census’ for the wild equine population).
I beg your pardon.
p.s. I sure hope the jerks at the PR firm/Killtoors Livestock/BLM are reading this blog….they might learn a thing or two. Ya’ think???? Naw…can’t fix stupid or hellbent on death.
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Denise, you were in the military? GOOD! You know a thing or two about reconnaissance missions, I’ll bet.
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That’s why I believe we need to give as much as we can to grassroots/herdwatch to purchase the toys and special ops (and that includes our current folks) personnel as possible. I say satellite commo, night vision, etc. I’m not kidding….you reading this BLM???? Stupid question and strictly rhetorical.
Oh, I’m just joking.
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Are the BLM and commentators burying the lead here? Have the Cattoor’s or the BLM previously admitted shooting wild horses to death from helicopters? Isn’t that the crucial fact, and not whether the horses were “driven” to the location or whether the BLM was “conducting operations in the area” on that “date” or whether the deaths were “associated with gather operations”? What’s all the talk about “prey” and “clean kills” and “how else do you euthanize on the range?” When did shooting horses from helicopters become acceptable in the United States for any reason?
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Unless there is some “rule of the wilderness” to leave a wild animal to suffer, whether that be a wild horse, elk, bear, wolf – or if that is ones choice as a purist – then that is fine. Otherwise I know I could never do that – I’d be off to find a ranger to help (as I no longer abide by guns in my presense). If that means a bullet from a helicopter, or from the ground, then that is what that means. If there were no way to get to a ranger and I did get my hands on a gun I hope I would do the right thing, I rather think I would feel beter than allowing an animal to lay and suffer. Having grown up on a farm and delt with killing animals for food, I think I could do that.
Yes, Cattoors are admitting to “humanly euthanizing” these two animals on the range and I believe some others too. This title implies that was done from a helicopter – I don’t know if Cattoor or BLM have denied that or not. Too much due to BLM and Cattoor secrecy is all left to our immagination what that “humane euthanazia” means. For sure they didn’t walk up and give them an IV though.
My take – The dates become important only from the court case perspective, in what lies may or may not have been told in the court case, and what the court believes from BLM, Cattoor or from us – part of the filing is for contempt of court – it can all be read – but we will have to wait for the court rulings to get the full scoop from Laura and Elyse – we are all emotionally invested at least and want a favorable outcome and the whole story, and if not that, then why not and how to learn from it and do better next time.
I guess we also do not want to let Cattoor and BLM off the hook if those two horses injuries or their locations that led to their deaths are related to actions by Cattoor or BLM – that would make them gather related deaths – Cattoor says the horses were not on that ledge because of any of their actions and, well, we don’t beleive them.
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Wondering just what the mares “serious injury” was. Looks pretty healthy in the pic to me. Nevertheless, I suppose vet care was out of the question,….and why?
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If you enlarge the picture it looked like the hide was degloved (ripped off?) her front legs. Though she was standing with weight on all 4 legs.
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In the August 4, 2010, article (“Plenty of Water”) published by Steven Long of “Horseback Magazine,” Sue Cattoor is quoted as saying “The horse found by [Katie] Fite [of Western Watersheds Project] was not driven over the cliff to its death by Dave Cattoor, it was shot by him from the helicopter with a high powered rifle. It happens on occasion because when we are out gathering horses, if we see something that has a pre-existing injury or if something is extremely old and needs to be put down, they will euthanize it in the field,” Cattoor said.”
That is not “euthanization.” The U.C. Davis, California School of Veterinary Medicine provides this guideline: “Does the immediate condition carry a hopeless prognosis for life? Examples may include open long bone (leg bones below the shoulder or hip) fractures, exposed abdominal contents, and loss of a limb.” http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/inf-an/inf-an_emergeuth-horses.html
What Sue Cattoor describes–shooting a horse that is “extremely old” or has “a pre-existing injury”–is culling. And culling with a high-powered rifle from a helicopter is a practice more akin to target practice than to euthanasia by gunshot. Here, again, is the U.C. Davis, with its protocol for euthanizing a horse by gunshot:
Gunshot
The proper location of gunshot penetration is important in the destruction of the brain and minimizing suffering. The optimal site for penetration of the skull is one-half inch above the intersection of a diagonal line from the base of the ear to the in side corner of the opposite eye. The firearm should be aimed directly down the neck, perpendicular to the front of the skull, and held at least 2-6 inches away from the point of impact.
Shooting an animal at a distance from a helicopter with a high-powered rifle is either hunting, culling or target practice, and most people find it shocking and despicable. By no stretch of the imagination can it be called euthanasia.
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Sorry, the close quote in my previous reply ended too late. The last paragraph is my commentary. The U.C. Davis quote on euthanasia by gunshot ends with “at least 2-6 inches away from the point of impact.”
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I believe this can also be found in the AVMA Guidelines on Humane Euthanasia.
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When the BLM did the calico round-up. They had a old mare who survived the round-up run. Survived the long trailer ride to holding pens. Remained standing when other younger horses were laying down, tired- from the monent they unloaded.
I think Laura Leigh named her Belle? She was thin, not as thin as the many starved horses we have refed. Just thin- but bright eyed, alert and hungry.
Rather then give Belle to the many people who would jump and take her on the spot. The BLM shot her, to old-to thin they said.
How many thousands of wild horses have they shot over the years and never placed a word in any report.? must be countless numbers of shot wild horses…they shoot so easy, so matter of fact- killing wild horses has been a way of life for them- FOREVER.
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Laura, Yes, this is what they do. TAB has bee saying the same thing It is called “Culling” and this is a method of population control used by wildlife manages. This is a method of removing animals from the overall population. Funny how BLM and WH&B managers have never used this term once. Thanks TAB for bring this word into play. It is most valid.
Cattoors have been encouraged to ‘cull’ our herds as they handle them. There is no mention of ‘culling’ in the 1971 Act, is there??? But thta is precisely what these people do. They shoot our horses at every opportunity they get. BLM also does this in facilities. This is not a valid management practice anywhere in this program. It has nothing to do with excess horses. It is used for undesirable horses; pre-existing injuries is often used and we find those horses to be marvelous survivors worthy of living out their days. They are just shot. Out of hand. This is culling. Culling is just the willful killing off of a population. But the BLM and Cattoors are practiced at not using this term. It is just another manipulation and manner to permanently remove our wild horses.
Cattoors are killers of horses, IMHO. They have been known to run horses off cliffs before. They have spent a lifetime of killing our wild horses and I do believe they are responsible for the deaths of thousands.
Get them away from our wild horses and burros. Stop these cold blooded killers from handing any more of wild ones! mar
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Mar, yes there is – FRWH&BA:
Sec 3. b. 2. a.The Secretary shall order old, sick, or lame animals to be destroyed in the most humane manner possible;…
And more:
Sec. 9. In administering this Act, the Secretary may use or contract for the use of helicopters or, for the purpose of transporting captured animals, motor vehicles. Such use shall be undertaken only after a public hearing and under the direct supervision of the Secretary or of a duly authorized official or employee of the Department. The provisions of subsection (a) of the Act of September 8, 1959 (73 Stat. 470; 18 U.S.C. 47(a)) shall not be applicable to such use. Such use shall be in accordance with humane procedures prescribed by the Secretary.
This is why we must change the revised Act by legislation.
Here is the whole thing:
http://www.thecloudfoundation.org/index.php/news-events-a-media/news/resources/216-whbact
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Mar, what is TAB?
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If Belle was young enough to make the helicopter driven run, young enough to give the contractors their penning fee, young enough to make it to the holding pens standing and alert.
It was wrong to shoot the mare for being OLD.
Without a live webcam on the helicopter to prove a horse is really in distress. I don’t want them making any ‘culling’ judgement calls.
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Yes, Rox, I have read this a few times and it still does not define itself as ‘culling’ which means the real purpose of this is to simply reduce the population. To us it looks as if the reason is the injuries or the age when the real reason is to be rid of any individuals who would take up resources either in the wild or in captivity.
They used to allow the old and the mares with foals to return to home ranges or did not even capture them. It is anything goes and killing can always be justified by the absence of observers. It has always been this way for contractors. The violent treatment of burros is outstanding and can be best described as torture. It is all about killing the wild ones. mar
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TAB = TheAndBetween… mar
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One thing we have to realize is we rarely have any say over what these people do. We do not influence the policies that are in use. They do write their own ticket and it has become grotesque over the years. That is why the entire relationship with the wild herds needs a new perspective and to be wrested from the death grip of BLM. I do not want these people handling our horses and burros anymore, ever.
We see these older horses and Blade as individuals who have paid their dues and will one day give their bodies back to the soil where their food comes from.
BLM/Cattoor see these older horses and Blade as not useful to them or attractive for adoption. They bring them and get paid for destroying their lives.
It is a crime to remove these resilient and smart older individuals. Injured horses who have managed to survive and heal enough to live long lives are a blessing to the herds for their survivorship. The deaths of these wonderful horses has helped fuel this campaign. mar
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BLM says “provided INACURATE information alleging that a dead horse observed on the range had been “driven” to its death during gather operations. The BLM is addressing this report here BECAUSE IT WAS NOT BASED ON FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE of the events, and was founded instead on speculation that provides an inaccurate record.”
My mind keeps finding these little ticks.
First –
Here we go again, accused of providing “inaccurate information” (new trendier wording? I guess “misinformation” is out of style now?). BLM & Cattoor, YOU are providing inaccurate information for years, decades, you are caught over and over, and just go on. No one believes you anymore – no accountability or transparency = no trust.
Second –
“BECAUSE IT WAS NOT BASED ON FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE of the events” And who created that scenario – who blocked independent observers, who created the secrecy? And why?
Maybe BLM/Cattoor thought we would let it go if observers were banned – so now they are in a kitchen of their own creation and it’s too hot.
How do you spell B A C K F I R E D?
I’ve got a suggestion GET OUT!
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Its quite the puzzle isn’t it? ‘path to river ‘blocked’.(vet report) Yet there were horses on ledges down around river bottom? and yes, ‘campers’?? sure they were camping, what were they doing down there in addition to camping? was that the ‘oregon crew’ (with the additional corrals) the BLM mentioned they called upon for additional pens? was the crew and pens right there on river bottom? and that road with the deep tracks near the shot mare, hmmm.
such a tangled web they weave.
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What road?
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Laura, exaclty, and a deflection strategy as old as man kind. “Get caught stealing a car, blame the person that owns the car for parking it right in that spot”.
We will continue calling them out, they will continue spewing their bunkum, more of the public will see through them no matter how hard they try too spin their web. Oh, they will catch a few, but we will get more, and we may even save a few they capture (talking people now).
Saving wild horses and saving human souls.
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People have been mentioning Robert Redford. The American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign is one of his charities. Also similar info for other celebrity supporters – just click on their names. Not direct, but maybe still useful.
http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/443-robert-redford
Check out the article on the First Amendment. Maybe he has a truck he’d be willing to part with for Laura?
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Linda, I am glad that you brought up the issue of Laura and the truck. Maybe buried down here deep into the comment section it won’t be noticed by the dark side but yes, Laura does need help.
If anyone knows of a dealership that can give a good rate on a rental or if someone is interested in donating or anything, let the fine ladies at http://www.grassrootshorse.com know. We have to get some wheels under Laura and do it fast.
If you could all send out some feelers it would sure help.
Thanks.
R.T.
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